Dr. Connor McClenahan on Opening a Co-Practice (not a group practice) | PoP 516

Image of Dr. Connor McClenahan speaking on a therapist podcast about opening a co-practice.

Have you heard of co-practices? How do they differ from group practices? Are the structures in co-practices perhaps more suited to how you would like to run a collaborative practice?

In this therapist podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Dr. Connor McClenahan about opening a co-practice.

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Meet Dr. Connor McClenahan

Image of Dr. Connor McClenahanon speaking with Joe Sanok on the Practice of the Practice podcast, a therapist podcast providing support to clinicians and therapists.

When Connor started his private practice in downtown Los Angeles, he saw therapists exhaust themselves competing with big-budget group practices. After years of helping therapists with their marketing, Connor is expanding to provide a new way to practice called Here Counseling.

It’s better support than a group for a flat membership rate. They provide built-in systems to help your practice stay full, connected, and thriving.

Visit his website, connect on Facebook and Instagram.

In This Podcast

Summary

  • Co-practice versus a group practice
  • For which clinicians do the co-practice model work?
  • Being an owner of a co-practice
  • What does it take to set up a co-practice?
  • Tips on having members in your co-practice and what to consider
  • Connor’s advice to private practitioners

Co-practice versus a group practice

In a typical group practice, owners and clinicians are a part of the corporation and share the profits, however, in a co-practice, therapists pay a flat rate for the services they receive.

For example, let’s say you make $10k worth of client income, that $5k that goes to your group, you kind of scratch your head and wonder ‘what am I paying for with that $5k? What are the services that I’m actually getting?’ So, co-practicing actually reverses that and says ‘why don’t we create a fair price for the services that you need in order for your practice to thrive?’ (Dr. Connor McClenahan)

Then, the therapists pay a predictable amount each month for the services they use in the practice while seeing as many clients and charging however much they want, which enables them to take home a larger salary at the end of the day.

For which clinicians do the co-practice model work?

Dr. Connor discusses that clinicians should be honest about what they earn, and then consider what they have to take care of versus what they are paying for. If a clinician decides to join a co-practice, they would need to have their own LLC or sole-proprietorship as a business that processes its own payment.

If you want to receive a check at the end of the day and you don’t want to have to worry about payment at all, then a traditional group practice would be beneficial in that way. But I think there are a lot of benefits that could be really cool with the co-practicing model. (Dr. Connor McClenahan)

Being an owner of a co-practice

I have to think about what is the price that I need to charge in order to make enough to take on some of the risk or some of the responsibility of managing a website or running Google Ads, and so that is a little bit of getting feedback from people who are members in terms of what’s working for them, what’s not and what services are worth it for them and which aren’t. (Dr. Connor McClenahan)

Dr. Connor also gives his own honest feedback about what and how much work he can manage before deciding to delegate and hire out.

This is the middle ground: finding a price point and a package that works for both the owner and the members within the co-practice.

What does it take to set up a co-practice?

  • Knowing how to do web design and running Google Ads and having skill in both video and photographic editing because having these skills in place can help to get your co-practice off the ground faster.

Having these skills yourself however is not essential: you can definitely collaborate with others when you need a hand with photo editing or organizing an effective and professional website.

  • There does not need to be only one person in charge: you can pool the resources of multiple people together when starting a co-practice, and in this way, you can find a system together that benefits everyone from the start.
  • Look for an office space that is big enough to hold all your people.

Tips for having members in your co-practice and what to consider

  • Have clear expectations from the get-go with all your staff and partners. Keep important details and notices in writing so that everyone is on the same page. This also helps the staff realize what their roles in the business are.
  • Dr. Connor suggests getting feedback from members to see how they feel and what they think about the system to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the terms. This also enables the staff to be a part of the decision-making process and helps their concerns to be heard.

As with any new business venture or system, it is wise to try to cover all your bases and understand the ins and outs before diving in. Dr. Connor recommends:

  • Be creative and reflective about the systems you have in your life right now. Think about how you can create a system that is adaptable, for example, consider your business model in the face of the COVID pandemic and how you can create systems that are flexible enough to move through difficult times.
  • Work with people who consider the same questions and collaborate with them in an effort to move you both forward in your careers.

Find out more about the membership here.

Books mentioned in this episode

Useful Links:

Meet Joe Sanok

private practice consultant

Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.

Thanks For Listening!

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Podcast Transcription

[JOE]:
Taking care of employees has never been more important. For years, Gusto has been helping more than 100,000 small businesses run payroll, offer benefits, onboard new employees and more. They call it the people platform. And it doesn’t just look nice, it works. Your payroll taxes are filed, deductions are calculated and your team gets paid. You can even offer health insurance and 401K’s. Get three months free after your first payroll when you go to www.gusto.com/joe. That’s www.gusto.com/joe.

This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok. Session number 516.

I am so excited. For one, today’s my birthday. I am 42. And we had a joke in high school because my friends were really into The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, which I never read but I feel like I heard enough about from my friends, that 42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything. So pretty much this year of my life is going to be the answer to life, the universe and everything. And if we need that, man, this is the time we need it. So much going on in our world. And this month, we’re kind of coming to an end just had such a great podcast takeover with LaToya Smith. And just really excited about kind of the work that not only she’s doing, but that we’re doing with Practice of the Practice to just increase access for people that have often been excluded in society, to stand up against injustices, to do our little part that we can to say that we want to help people that have been underprivileged and all the different ways to just be able to thrive.

You know, one thing that I did is there’s this book called Caste, and I would highly recommend listening to Oprah’s book club discussion on it. I mean, she had some great kind of questions and discussions all around race and caste and the American caste system. One thing I took away from that podcast was just how much the American caste system is similar to the Indian caste system, and then also to the Nazi Germany caste system. And in fact, the Nazis actually came and studied the Jim Crow South here in America. And there were things in the south that the Nazis said, this is a bit extreme. And so it’s kind of like, as you learn about history, as you open yourself up, as you ask other people about their experiences, we can genuinely change ourselves, and we can improve kind of generation upon generation, I know, the discussions that we are having, as we are on this big road trip.

You know, we’re, you know, at the time of this recording in the southwest in Arizona, and we are along the Mexico American border, and we got stopped by Border Patrol, they just waved us through. Then we talked about borders, we talked about people that are undocumented, and why they might want to leave for a better life. And, you know, the politics around that. And for a six and nine year old to be learning that firsthand, and seeing these deserts and knowing that people cross these for a better life. No matter where you stand, like that’s tough to stomach to think about kids going across the desert, and all of that. And so, we’re trying to have these honest and open conversations, as well with our kids as we travel.

So if you want to follow some of those travels, we have the Leave to Find podcast. That’s our family adventure podcast. We’ve been doing that every Wednesday, just talking about our adventures and our travels and just some of the funny things that happen, like spilling Blackwater all over myself and you know, a different side of Joe Sanok than maybe you’ve been used to. So check that out on wherever you listen to podcasts.

Well, today, I’m so excited about my friend Connor who is on the show. Connor is one half of the [unclear] brothers who did videos for our first Slow Down School and they are great videographers, but he’s also a psychologist. And he’s gonna be talking today about kind of a co practice, not a group practice, a co practice, which is a really interesting model. So I’m so excited for you to meet Connor and to just hear more about his approach. So without any further ado, here he is.

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[JOE]:
Today on the Practice of the Practice podcast we have Connor McClenahanon. Connor started his private practice in downtown Los Angeles, and he saw therapists exhaust themselves competing with big budget group practices. After years of helping therapists with their marketing, Connor is expanding to provide a new way to practice called Here Counseling. It’s better support than a group for a flat membership rate. They provide built in systems to help your practice stay full, connected and thriving. Connor, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.

[CONNOR]:
Hello, Joe. Hey, how’s it going?

[JOE]:
It’s going great. It’s so awesome to hear your voice again, you know, someone from the very first Slow Down School, you know, [unclear] Media, you guys were a big part of the video world for a long time there. And, you know, it’s just great to hear your voice again. How’ve you been?

[CONNOR]:
Good. You know, it’s so funny. I mean, that was a really amazing time. Feel like those OG years, you know, like, first Slow Down School, that was a really cool moment, not just, you know, being able to get some good time with you and hang out, but meet some other people who kind of all I feel like, you know, have all kind of done some pretty amazing things. So pretty awesome.

[JOE]:
Yeah, I was just talking about how we’re here in Fort Collins, as I’m recording this and have been hanging out with Jeremy Sharpe, the testing psychologist, and, you know, he and John Clarke, and, you know, so many other people that, you know, kind of have these big dreams for how to reshape private practice and teaching and learning and now, like they’re doing really big things. It’s so cool.

[CONNOR]:
I know. Very cool. Yeah.

[JOE]:
Well, so tell me a little bit about this kind of co practice idea. You and I were talking before we started recording it. Tell me a little bit about, you know, where did that come from? How does it work? What’s it look like?

[CONNOR]:
Sure. So where it came from, I mean, when I first started, I mean, I mean, as you know, Joe, I started doing videos, right. And as I was kind of getting into private practice, it seemed like there was something that was kind of in the water that was maybe hard to kind of see when you’re just getting into it, which is that there’s it’s not like there’s an even playing field, you know, there are some big groups who have a lot of money to spend on ads, and website design, and SEO, and all that kind of stuff. And when you’re just starting out, it can be really hard to kind of gain traction. At the same time, it can be hard to really feel surrounded by support. And so what a lot of people do is they end up joining a group, right, it makes sense, you want a consistent stream of revenue, you want to be able to bring home a consistent amount of pay, you want to be able to see clients. But then you have to give away like up to 50% of your, your income to a group. And that can be really limiting.

I remember, you know, I was at a group practice. And I would remember seeing some of the best therapists leave the practice, not because they didn’t want community, or they didn’t want to be supported, but because it just didn’t make sense for them financially anymore, you know, sad to see them go. But it made sense, right, they had to get away. But then at the other side, you see, when they leave the practice that now they have to do everything themselves, they have to somehow swim in this large river, full of a lot of other therapists, a lot of other large group practices. And so it can be pretty overwhelming and exhausting to try to get the systems that you need up and running on your own, to really create consistent referrals.

And so that’s what I wanted, when I started is I was thinking, okay, what do I want here, as I start out, my main goals are, I want to be able to first of all work around people I really care about and I like, then that all my systems can just work and hum along smoothly to get me referrals. And so that’s where I started to think there’s got to be a better way to actually get support, and to actually do this with other people and to collaborate, as opposed to having to do all these pieces on my own. So that’s kind of where I came up with Here Counseling.

[JOE]:
Yeah. And so break down kind of how it works compared to a typical group practice.

[CONNOR]:
Yeah, sure. So a typical group practice, you are part of their corporation, right, where you have to, they take 50% of the pay that you receive from clinicians, or sorry, from your clients. But with a co practicing model, you just pay a fair flat rate for services that you’re getting. So instead of like, for example, let’s say you do $10,000 worth of client income, that $5000 that goes to your group, you kind of scratch your head and wonder, what am I paying for with that $5,000? You know, what are the services that I’m actually getting? And so, co practicing, actually reverses that and says, you know, why don’t we just create a fair price for its services that you need in order for your practice to thrive. And then you just pay a predictable amount every month. And then you can see as many clients as you want, you can charge whatever you want. And you just get to take on that pay in your own corporation. And so for me, that felt like a more honest, more straightforward, more equitable way of doing business with the people that I want to be, you know, in community with. So that’s kind of that where it came from.

[JOE]:
Would you say that there’s a certain type of person that would rather have a co practice than just be an employee or a 10-99? Because I’m thinking there are some folks that I had in my group practice that they didn’t give a rip about anything business, they literally wanted to show up, they wanted to do counseling, they wanted to go home, they wanted to, and for them, you know, when we were charging, I think, you know, 200 bucks a session or so. And if they’re taking home 65% of that, yeah, that’s so much better than at like a typical nonprofit.

[CONNOR]:
Sure. Oh, that’s still a better rate.

[JOE]:
Have you noticed, there’s, yeah. All right. But are you still thinking, like, do you think that there’s personality types that maybe have a little bit of business that might like this better? Or would you say that this is really good for pretty much any kind of clinician?

[CONNOR]:
I think you’d have to kind of just put the, the, what you’re really getting on the table and think about what am I having to take care of versus what am I paying for. Right? And that’s with a lot of different things, right? But, for example, I think if you were to, you know, join a co practice, you’d also need to have your own, you know, LLC, or sole proprietorship, right, you’d have to have your own business, that processes its own payments, right. So you don’t get a W-2, you have to kind of process your own payments that way. So if you just want to receive a check, at the end of day, you don’t want to have to worry about payments at all, then I’m guessing that like, like a traditional group practice, you know, would be beneficial in that way. But I really think there’s a lot of benefits that can be really, really cool with the co practicing model.

So what we do is we have systems built in so you get a web page, you get office space, which I guess right now isn’t exactly the marketing point, right? But you get a webpage.

[JOE]:
It used to be the top thing, do you have an office, and now it’s like, umm, with winter coming, I don’t know.

[CONNOR]:
Exactly. But the office space, I don’t know, some people still need office space, even to do telehealth sessions in. I’ve got four kids at home, you know, and, and I can’t find a quiet corner of the house to actually do my sessions in, you know. But so yeah, office space, webpage. And also, we have a phone assistant who takes client phone calls, and we give you a phone system so that you can do HIPAA compliant phone calls and video calls. And then we also manage a Google ad campaign that sends, you know, referrals to, or clicks to the target site. And then we do a weekly consultation group. And that that one is, is important to me also, because, you know, I think there’s, there’s so many times that that ends up getting put on the back burner in terms of the actual care that we need as clinicians in order to do our best work and to be on top of our game and to keep clients and to work through issues. And so we have a weekly consultation group that meets and talks about cases and supports each other.

[JOE]:
Yeah. And so when I think about it, from a clinician standpoint, it seems like it’s very beneficial. Now, what about from an owner standpoint for taking on the risk of these things? Like, how did the numbers compare for the owner to start a co practice versus a group practice?

[CONNOR]:
Yeah, well, you know, honestly, I’ve never run a group practice. So I haven’t I haven’t found out what the what the, um, the financial, you know, benefit or risk is on that. You know, I think it is, it is something where, where I have to kind of think about what is the price that I need to charge in order to make enough to take on some of the risk or some of the responsibility of managing websites or managing Google ads. And so that is a little bit of like, kind of getting feedback from people who are members, in terms of what’s working for them, what’s not, what services are worth it for them, what’s not. And then for me, as well, to kind of do that feedback within myself of like, what parts am I taking on too much responsibility for? What pieces do I need to, you know, delegate out and hire out, or what things aren’t realistic for me to offer? So that’s been actually a little bit of the game here is to try to find both a price point and like a package that works for me and works for the members who are part of the community.

[JOE]:
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of co-working spaces out there that aren’t therapeutic. But, you know, it’s like taking that model and kind of mixing it into the therapeutic model and, and saying, you know, whether it’s we work or, you know, there’s lots of other kind of ones like [unclear] or things like that where people kind of put together something similar, but not as a full on kind of therapy practice. When you first thought through this, maybe walk us through what it took to get this going. Because there’s probably people listening that are saying, well, I really like this idea. I want to set up my own, this feels like it’s a better fit than maybe a group practice. Walk us through, okay, here’s the big building blocks that you know, from starting a co practice that people really need to walk through.

[CONNOR]:
Yeah, sure. So some things that were helpful for me starting out was I already knew how to do web design myself, I already knew how to run a Google Ads campaign. And I already knew how to do photos and video. And so those were skills that I could easily kind of transfer to benefiting the people that were already part of the group. And so that was kind of a starting point for me of some skills I need to have in place. I don’t think that’s essential. I think you can also collaborate with other people who might have those skills. And, I mean, there’s so many different ways you can do this, I don’t even think it generally or necessarily needs to have one person who’s doing it, you could have like a group of four people who pool the resources together and find systems that they can actually benefit everyone with. And I think that’s a little bit of the spirit that makes me excited about therapy is thinking that so much we’ve been, we’ve ended up kind of splitting apart or being kind of maybe told that you have to go just kind of go do it on your own, instead of being able to collaborate with other people. And that was one of the things is that I already had some of those skills kind of together. But beyond that, the other thing is, is having office space that is big enough to kind of hold, you know, a few people that you know, that you need to have in membership. And then, then, you know, things like a website, all those other pieces that I described, I think are the pieces that I needed to kind of put together.

[JOE]:
And for the phones, did you hire a phone service? Did you hire your own employee? Is it a virtual assistant company? How’d you find someone who could answer the phones for the whole company?

[CONNOR]:
It’s actually a virtual assistant, you know, you know, it initially was somebody that I had with [unclear] Media. And then she did a great job. And so you know, over the year and a half or so that she’s been working with me, she’s kind of fully learned and, and grown at taking intake calls and everything like that. And so that’s the person that we use for a phone assistant, but definitely, I mean, that’s one of the things is economy of scale is huge. I mean, if you hire a phone assistant, usually you’re looking at a certain hour minimum you have to pay them. And same thing with Google ads, you have to look at a certain minimum kind of monthly payment, you have to pay for a Google Ads person to manage your campaign. And all those costs can be split up really easily when you have other people in it with you that everyone can kind of benefit from those same resources like having a virtual assistant.

[JOE]:
Yeah.

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[JOE]:
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[JOE]:
Yeah. Any tips for kind of working with a whole team of people that are kind of, I wouldn’t say they’re co owners, but they’re not just clinicians, but I imagine that just the human side of it is different than when they’re your contractors or your employees. So any tips on having members as a part of it and the dynamics of that?

[CONNOR]:
Yeah, it’s been really important for me to have really clear expectations outright, you know, to have everything down in writing. What I do is I have a sheet and I say on there, the first thing is, you know, what you can expect from Here Counseling, in terms of what we do, what the systems are we have in place, what kind of hours we put behind different things. And then what is expected of you as a member also, you know, so things like, you know, the different kind of non compete kind of things that we do, or, or kind of how we handle blogs with them, things like that. I try to make it really clear upfront, and then I give it to our members. And then I got feedback from them about how this is fitting? Does this feel like a fair relationship? And then we kind of tweaked it back and forth until it felt like something that we could all agree on. That was good. And so that was a really important process for me coming out of a group practice and wanting to do something different, that felt equitable, and not that all group practices are like that, but I think there are some that can kind of tend towards being a bit more hierarchical. And, you know, I wanted this to feel like something that had some kind of some kind of sense that they were paying for something that they were appreciating on a monthly or daily basis.

[JOE]:
Yeah, it’s almost like a co op model in some ways, where all the members are kind of a part of the decision making or at least you know, can give some feedback. Um, any, any issues that came up that you wish you had addressed on the front end that as you got into it you thought, oh, we adjusted and changed things after we went through that or kind of tips for people of just, I don’t know, pitfalls to avoid.

[CONNOR]:
Yeah. Well that was actually, you know, writing the contract that way was to try to kind of avoid some other issues that I had had at other situations and wanted to make sure things were really clear. But you know, the other thing, too, is, is, you know, making sure that I have good training with all the phone systems and things like that. That’s been something that I’ve had to, to, to, you know, be really on it. I mean, there have been times when people come on board and, and they’re like, I don’t know how to work the phone system. Like, I don’t know how to do that, either. You know, and, but so those things have been, you know, things that I’ve had to kind of work through in the past. But, you know, I think beyond that, I’m not sure that there have been any kind of issues or glitches on that on that level besides that.

[JOE]:
Yeah, no, I guess what, if someone was listening to this and saying, oh, I just love what he’s saying, I think I might want to create something like this, is there a checklist of thoughts or things that people should think through before they jump into something like this?

[CONNOR]:
Yeah, well, first of all, I think right now is a really good time to be thinking that way. I think, honestly, with COVID, and everything kind of shutting down and the economic shifts that we’re experiencing, I think that the most important thing that we can do, be is, is to be creative, and to be reflective about the systems that we have in our lives right now. Honestly, this goes back to, to kind of some of the Slow Down School thoughts or the tenets there, which is that sometimes the most important thing you can do is stop and pull away. And recognize what are the systems that are working for me? And what are the systems that aren’t working for me right now in my life? What are the things that feel like they’re weighing? Like, so it’s like, if COVID is putting a giant weight on the bridge of your life, like, what are the pillars that are starting to crack and that can’t support the weight? And what are the other ones that are strong that have been able to support you through this time? And how do we shift our lives creatively towards the things that are the most meaningful and supportive? And for me, that is feeling connected to people that I care about, and that I can work with closely. And that’s also making sure that I’m not, you know, in a situation or work situation economically, that’s draining me emotionally or financially.

And so, I think that’s the first thing is to recognize in your life, what are the things that are strained, and what are the things that are strong right now? And if your work situation is strained, it is worth thinking about doing it differently. The second thing I think about is how do you kind of surround yourself with people who are kind of thinking those same questions, right? Who are kind of tooling on the same questions about how, what things can I change in my business, what things can I change in my practice? And is there a way to collaborate with those people to actually move yourself forward? You know, something that we want to do as we grow, is have local site managers, who each are responsible for, you know, a small group of therapists at their local site. And they build and grow that site, so that it stays kind of a place that people can refer to each other, know each other, coach each other, help each other. And so that’s part of the vision of the site of, you know, having local managers. So I would say too, that’s something that we need at some point is managers, but that’s something that, you know, you can do, is create your own kind of, collective or collaborative to help move you forward.

[JOE]:
Yeah, no, when you say, kind of local managers, it makes me think of how big do you want to make this thing?

[CONNOR]:
You know, that is a good question. You know, we’re starting in California, we have, I have my eyes on San Diego right now. And then also, Pasadena is a great spot for therapy right now. And it’s definitely in need of some different ways of doing therapy. You know, there’s so many people who have the traditional way of having like, a full time office space doesn’t obviously really work anymore. And so I think there are a lot of people who are looking for a different kind of structure of how they’re going to, you know, invest in their business. And then also, San Francisco. So, it’s California right now, that’s kind of where we’re focusing.

[JOE]:
Yeah, no, that’s so cool. So the last question I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

[CONNOR]:
You know, Joe, I knew you were gonna ask that. That is a great question. And I think that if every therapist was listening, I would say that we do our best when we collaborate together. You know, we are social creatures. And just like, you know, the things that drew us to therapy most often are how meaningful it can be to share life with others. And I would encourage you that even if it’s not having to do with, you know, how your practice is structured, or whatever it is to think about, take time to think about what are the areas of your life where you feel the most connected and collaborative with other people? And how do you put more weight behind those things today?

[JOE]:
Such good advice. So if people want to connect with you, read more about what you’re doing, consult with you on opening their own co practice, what’s the best way for people to connect with you?

[CONNOR]:
Yeah, my website, herecounseling.com/membership. We are open for managers and also for members if you want to give us a line or if you want to want to ask about how we did that and you need help figuring that out, too. I’d love to talk.

[JOE]:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.

[CONNOR]:
Yeah. Good to talk to you, Joe.

[JOE]:
Yeah, you too. We’ll talk soon.

[CONNOR]:
Okay, bye, bye.

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[JOE]:
Go take some action, be inspired by Connor and other people like him. We have some really exciting guests coming up. In the next episode, we’re gonna be talking about not being a stranger and creating your own luck. And then we’re gonna be talking about building wealth, we’re gonna be talking about teletherapy. And then the next time, we’re gonna be talking all about creating results to loop faster and faster and to grow. And then we’re gonna, we’re gonna go in a few other different directions with some scary business decisions. And then, throughout most of January, we’re gonna be playing some of the Killin’It Camp speakers. So we’re gonna have 1, 2, 3, 4, yeah, four of our speakers, we’re going to be playing on here. And if you haven’t got access to those Killin’It Camp recordings, we have over 30 speakers from three full days of speaking, that you can have access to at your own time, so you can go over to killinitcamp.com.

Also today’s sponsor, Gusto. Gusto is who I use, actually today, I just talked to my accountant to prepare for 2020 taxes and to get going with all that. And you know, Gusto has made it so much easier for me to be able to say, here’s what we spent on things, here’s what we spent on retirement and taxes and all of that. And so if you aren’t using Gusto, head on over to gusto.com/joe, you’re going to get three months for free when you sign up. Gusto is amazing. I actually reached out to them to be a sponsor, because they are just such an easy platform to use. And I can’t recommend them highly enough. So go check them out. Make sure you sign up with Gusto. Use that code so they know that their sponsorship is working. Thanks so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a wonderful day.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music; we really like it. This podcast is designed to provide accurate, authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.

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