Everything EFT: Emotional Regulation with Dr. Katie Nall | POP 761

A photo of Dr. Katie Nall is captured. Dr. Nall has her Ph.D. in Mathematics Education, she also is a two-time TEDx speaker. Dr. Katie Nall is featured on Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

What is the science behind EFT? How can you use EFT to dissolve your daily WAFFLES? What about EFT makes it so effective in regulating and maintaining an emotionally healthy life?

In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about EFT and completes a live session with Dr. Katie Nall.

Podcast Sponsor: Noble

A an image of Noble Health is captured. Noble Health is the podcast sponsor to Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

According to a scientific brief released by the World Health Organization, between 2020-2021, global prevalence of anxiety and depression increased by a massive 25%. As a mental health professional, you have likely seen the effects of the pandemic and events of the past few years on your clients.

With the great need for both anxiety and depression support in mind, our friends at Noble just launched Roadmaps on Anxiety and Depression that offers your clients the education and tools they need between sessions to begin to take the steps necessary to reduce their symptoms.

Noble makes powerful therapy simple with their app that offers research-backed, automated, between-session support for clients, assessments, messaging, and more.

Learn more and join for free at www.noble.health/Joe

Meet Dr. Katie Nall

A photo of Dr. Katie Nall is captured. She is Tedx Speaker, and Master Trainer and Certified Practitioner in Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) with additional training in trauma, quantum, and picture EFT. Dr. Nall is featured on the Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

Not only does Dr. Nall have her Ph.D. in Mathematics Education, she also is a two-time TEDx speaker, a professional member of National Speakers Association, and an Accredited Master Trainer and Certified Practitioner in Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) with additional training in trauma, quantum, and picture EFT. Whether in person or online, Dr. Nall shows others how to dissolve their WAFFLES – worry, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion, and stress. A careless housekeeper and worse cook with no desire for rehabilitation she somehow is still married to the same person for over 49 years.

Visit Dr. Nall’s website and connect with her on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Youtube.

Freebie: Access Dr. Nall’s Tapping Chart

In This Podcast

  • What is EFT?
  • What has recently given you WAFFLES?
  • How is EFT effective?
  • Dr. Katie Nall’s advice to private practitioners

What is EFT?

Emotional freedom technique is also called EFT or [EFT] tapping, and it is a somatic method to release negative emotions that are stuck in our body. (Dr. Nall)

Gary Craig, the developer of EFT, and a Standard-educated engineer, studied meridians in Chinese medicine and identified them as electrical circuits.

Clinical studies that have been done around the world have shown that tapping is more effective than cognitive-based behavioral therapy, or talk therapy, and is just as effective as EMDR. (Dr. Nall)

The main difference between tapping and these other modalities is that you can learn to do it yourself and practice it in your own time. It is non-addictive, non-invasive, and can be self-administered.

What has recently given you WAFFLES?

In the last 24 to 48 hours, what has given you:

W: Worry

A: Anxious

F: Fearful

F: Frustrated

L: Lethargic

E: Exhausted

S: Stressed

A basic EFT tapping session:

  • Which emotion are you currently feeling?
  • On a scale from 1 to 10, at which intensity could this feeling be classified?
  • Where do you feel it in your body?
  • Right here, right now, do you feel safe?

If that is not a true statement, pick another statement that is true. For instance, you could say, “Right here, right now, I accept the way I feel … or even … someday I hope to accept the way I feel”. (Dr. Nall)

Taking Joe’s example, you can follow along:

  • Take your right or left hand and look at its palm. Between your wrist and little finger, there’s a fleshy part on the side of your hand. Tap on this space with the four fingers of your other hand.

Say:

“Even though when I think about [the difficult event] today I still have a little bit of worry in my shoulders. Right here, right now, I feel safe anyway.”

Repeat twice with different variations while tapping.

  • Tap on the top of your head with either your left or right hand, or both.
  • Tap above your nose in between the edges of your eyebrows.
  • Tap on the outside of the eye between the eye and the hairline.
  • Tap underneath the eye on the top part of the cheek.
  • Tap underneath the nose above the upper lip.
  • Tap underneath the lips.
  • Tap on the collarbones, either with one hand on one collarbone or both hands on both collarbones.
  • Gently but firmly slap on your lower ribs.
  • Blow all your air out of your mouth like a cartoon character.
  • Take a sip of water if you have water nearby, and reflect on how you are feeling.

How is EFT effective?

Worldwide clinical studies that have been done on the effects of EFT have shown that the process of tapping reduces the adrenal and cortisol levels that spike during stress.

More importantly, what they have found is that that particular incident doesn’t return … that’s the most powerful part, I think. (Dr. Nall)

Using EFT tapping to move through difficult events in life has helped people resolve the issues caused by those events.

And, if that event ever were to happen again, that person will not be as negatively impacted by it.

Dr. Katie Nall’s advice to private practitioners

You were put here to make people’s lives better. Ask yourself every day, is what I’m doing making people’s lives better? Carry on!

Useful Links mentioned in this episode:

Check out these additional resources:

Meet Joe Sanok

A photo of Joe Sanok is displayed. Joe, private practice consultant, offers helpful advice for group practice owners to grow their private practice. His therapist podcast, Practice of the Practice, offers this advice.

Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.

Thanks For Listening!

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Podcast Transcription

[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 761. I’m Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. I’m so glad that you are here today. We cover all sorts of things from starting, growing, scaling your practice. We dive into all sorts of clinical things that really can help you grow your practice. Today I am so excited to have Dr. Nall with us. Not only does Dr. Nall have her Ph.D. in Mathematics education, but is a two-time TEDx speaker, professional member of the National Speakers Association and an Accredited Master Trainer and Certified Practitioner in Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFT). Katie, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. [DR. KATIE NALL] Joe, it’s my honor and pleasure to be here. I’m so excited to be able to share such great news with your audience. [JOE] Yes, I’m so glad you’re here. We got through some tech snafus, you’re awesome. Yeti mic, that should be working for some reason. Zencaster is rejecting it this morning. Usually, we’ve got your awesome sound going, but we made it work. So really glad that you’re here. Tell us a little bit about how you got into this work. [DR. NALL] Joe, I was a late-in-life student going back to school in my mid-fifties to earn one of my life goals, and that was my Ph.D. It was in Math education at the time. I was working at a college and I had so many students who had one class left before they could graduate. They would come into my office, I was the administrator there and say, “I only have one class left. How do I graduate?” I’d say, “Well, you’re going to register for the class,” and their face would go white. I said, “Well, what’s the class?” They would all say, “Math.” Well, I’m a mathematician, so I responded as a mathematician and got excited and said, “That’s such great news. You saved the best for last.” That is not the way they felt. They were panic-stricken. So as I was doing my research for my dissertation, Joe, I wanted to help these students overcome their fear, anxiety, and worry about math and test taking. I did a lot, a lot of research and what I found was there was nothing out there on how to relieve fear, anxiety, and worry about math and test taking. However, I recognized this is a world problem, and I pulled out what was important and what was important was how do you relieve fear, anxiety, and worry. That was year 2010. I joined Nick Ortner’s 10-day Tapping Summit, watched every 10 days, listened to the whole thing, bought the book, bought the DVD, and the whole 10 days, Joe, they talked about relieving anger or anxiety and worry and frustration about finances, about relationships, about addictions. Nobody mentioned math or test taking, so I have no idea if this is going to work or not, but I didn’t have anything else. So I grabbed the kids and I’m like, “Okay, let’s try this.” One by one they’d file into my office and we’d do this tapping thing, and they’d leave and they’d go, “Well, that wasn’t anything.” I’d go, “I don’t know.” But a few weeks later, Joe, a few weeks later, they started trickling into my office and hesitantly said, “I’m not sure, but I think I’m passing my math class.” I didn’t know who was more surprised, them or me, because we had no idea if this was going to work or not. Well, since that time, I went back to get training and it turned out I had no idea what I was doing, but it was still working anyway. I completed level one, level two, level three, trauma quantum, which is past lives. That’s a whole nother topic. I did picture tapping. I’m now a supervisor, a mentor, and now I can accomplish my goal of being a trainer. Just for comparison, while I was working full time at the college, it took me four years to earn my Ph.D. in Mathematics education and while I was at the college, it took me eight years to become a master trainer in emotional freedom technique. [JOE] Wow. Well, tell us a little bit about EFT so those that maybe have just heard about it in grad school or those that maybe aren’t totally familiar with it, just give them a quick primer on the basics of it. [DR. NALL] Sure, Joe, Emotional Freedom technique is also called EFT or topping and it is a somatic method to release negative emotions that are stuck in our body. That’s basically the theory behind it. The developer, Gary Craig, is a Stanford-educated engineer who saw what other people were doing with relieving stress using meridians, traditional Chinese medicines, meridians, and identified these meridians as if they were electrical circuits. For the basic recipe of tapping, there’s a lot of different versions, but for the basic recipe, he said, “What if you tap on these eight points?” That’s the top of the center of the head, above the nose on the edge of the eyebrow, on the end of the eyebrow, on the temple between your eye and your hairline, under your eye, under your nose, under your lips, on both sides of your collarbone and then the last space is about four inches under your arm, on your ribs. He said tapping on those eight points hits about 96 to 98% of your meridians and allows that energy flow to be released. I know this sounds a little different than what most people have heard of, but clinical studies that have been done around the world have shown that tapping is more effective than Cognitive Behavior Therapy or talk therapy and just as effective as something called EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprogramming. The difference is with tapping, you can learn it and use it yourself. It’s non-addictive, non-evasive, and self-administered. [JOE] My daughter’s therapists have used that with them and so to just see them use that in their everyday life has been really transformative for them. [DR. NALL] Right. [JOE] Well, as we were talking about the show, one thing that you’ve often done is to walk the host through a session, and I said I was up for that, so I’ll let you take the reins of the show. [DR. NALL] Hold on tight, Joe. So Joe, I’ll ask a series of questions and then what we’ll do is we’ll tap without words, just so we’ll get comfortable with the spots and then we’ll add the words. Is that all right? [JOE] That sounds great. [DR. NALL] So I’m going to ask you, in the last 24 to 48 hours, what has given you waffles? What has given you something to worry about, anxious, fearful, frustrated, lethargic, exhausted or stressed? [JOE] Actually, today my seven and 10 year old daughters are going to go with their mom who lives in California and flies in once a month. They’re going to go with her for the first time for two weeks. Usually, they’re only with her five to seven days, so I would say last night for all three of us was an emotional evening. [DR. NALL] When you think about last night right now, Joe, what emotion’s coming up? What negative emotion is coming up? [JOE] I think, for me, it was more that, like their negative emotions more than necessarily mine. So I don’t know if that’s the best example for me to use. Maybe I should use a different one that has more of my own personal negative emotions. I mean, I guess I felt maybe some worry for them as to their abilities to handle difficult situations. [DR. NALL] When you think about that worry now, from the top of your head to the bottom of your toes, where do you feel the worry in your body? [JOE] I’d say in my shoulders. [DR. NALL] In your shoulders. That’s very common. From 0 to 10, where 0 is like, ah, no big deal, they’re going to be fine and 10 is the most worried you’ve been in your entire life, what number would you give the worry that you have right this instant? [JOE] Maybe a two. [DR. NALL] A two? Good. Is this a true statement, “Right here, right now, I feel safe?” [JOE] Yes, that’s true [DR. NALL] For your listening audience, if that is not a true statement, pick another statement that is true. For instance, you could pick right here, right now, I accept the way I feel, or even right here, right now, someday I hope to accept the way I feel. I would encourage your listening audience, unless they’re driving, if you’re driving, don’t do this but if you’re not driving, go ahead and do this along with us. So the last question, Joe, is if I ask you to repeat a phrase or a statement and you go, ah, I wouldn’t use those words, or I’d say something different, would you restate it in your own words for me? [JOE] Sure. [DR. NALL] Okay, so here we go. I’d like you to take either your right hand or your left hand, it doesn’t matter and look at your palm of your hand. Now, between your wrist and your little finger, that fleshy part on the side of your hand, I want you to tap on that with the four fingers of your other hand. Right now, I have four fingers of my right hand tapping on the fleshy part of my left hand that’s between my wrist and my little finger. You can use either hand, it doesn’t matter. When we add words here, Joe, I’m going to ask you to repeat the sentence, so you’ll say a sentence about three times, and then we move to the top of the head, so right on the crown of the head. You can use your right hand or your left hand, or both, it doesn’t matter and tap on the top of your head. The next spot is above your nose on the edge of your eyebrow. Again, you can use one hand or the other, or both, and it’s right on the edge of your eyebrow, right above your nose. The next spot that we’re going to tap is on the side of the eye between the eye and the hairline, right there with your temple. You’re going to tap there. And you can breathe while you’re doing this. I have it on good reputation that breathing is a important part of this whole thing. The next spot is where I keep a bag for a quick getaway, and that’s under my eyes. So tap right under your eyes, and then we go under your nose, above your lip, and tap right there. Next spot is under your lip, above your chin. Then I have my clients have their palms face them, and cross their wrists. Then use your fingers to tap right on their collarbone. You have both collarbones. If you want to use one hand, you can stretch your hand out to go on both sides of your collarbone and then about four, last spot is four inches under your arm, you want to slap your ribs and give your ribs a good hearty slap. There you go. Then I have my clients blow their air out like a cartoon character. It goes like this brrr. Now we’re going to add words. You ready? [JOE] Yep. [DR. NALL] So tapping on the side of the hand, we say, even though [JOE] Even though [DR. NALL] When I think about last night [JOE] When I think about last night [DR. NALL] Today, I still have a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Today, I still have a little worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Right here, right now I feel safe anyway [JOE] Right here, right now, I feel safe anyway. [DR. NALL] Then we’ll repeat versions of that, two more times. Even though [JOE] Even though [DR. NALL] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] When I think about last night [JOE] When I think about last night [DR. NALL] I’m preparing for the big trip [JOE] I’m preparing for the big trip [DR. NALL] Right here, right now, I feel safe. [JOE] Right here, right now, I feel safe. [DR. NALL] Even though [JOE] Even though [DR. NALL] Thinking about my daughters’ big trip [JOE] Thinking about my daughters’ big trip [DR. NALL] And what we did last night [JOE] And what we did last night [DR. NALL] I have a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] I have a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Right here, right now, I feel safe [JOE] Right here, right now, I feel safe. [DR. NALL] Then tapping on the top of the head, just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Above your nose on the edge of your eyebrow, just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Inside of the eye, just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Under the eye, just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Under the nose, a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Under the lips, just a little bit of worry under my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] On the collarbone, just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] Just a little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Then slap it on those ribs, a little bit of worry in my shoulders [JOE] A little bit of worry in my shoulders [DR. NALL] Blow all your air out, brrr. If you have water in nearby, take a sip, Joe. Then I’m going to ask you to think about last night and how you feel right now, and how your worry, what level your worry is, and what your shoulders feel like between 0 and 10. [JOE] I would say my shoulders feel less stressed. I would say the worry is still probably about the same, but I mean. [DR. NALL] For instances like that, we go a little deeper. If we were going to do another round, what we did was called a round, f we were going to do another round, I would get more specific. What specifically are you worried about? and why would you, not so much why, but the specifics of what you’re worried about and go and go into that. We would do things like talk about what color is the worry and what shape is it? There’s a lot more to it. You can imagine with a one-hour session, I mean, just even this little bit that we did, your shoulders are a little bit more comfortable, right? [JOE] Yes. Well, even last night as I was talking to my daughters, I’m not trained in EFT, but even I was asking them if your emotions were a weather pattern, what weather pattern would they be? One of them said, it would be a tsunami meeting a tornado. Then the other I asked what color would you say your emotions are? This is great to be able to even just use this with them as they’re worrying as well. [DR. NALL] There is a school in Pacific Grove California, Pacific Grove Middle School, that they do this for six minutes a day every day. Students, faculty staff, custodians, maintenance, everybody. They found by doing that, the test scores are going up, the behavior problems are going down, and even the special education kids are performing better. [JOE] Wow. [NOBLE] According to a scientific brief released by the World Health Organization, between 2020 and 2021, global prevalence of anxiety and depression increased by a massive 25%. As a mental health professional, you’ve likely seen the effects of the pandemic and events over the past few years on your clients. With the great need for both anxiety and depression support in mind, our friends at Noble just launched roadmaps on anxiety and depression that offers your clients the education and tools they need between sessions to begin to take the steps necessary to reduce their symptoms. Noble makes powerful therapy simple with their app that offers research-backed automated, between-session support for clients, assessments, messaging and more. Learn more and join for free at www.noble.health/joe. Again, that’s www.noble.health/joe. [JOE SANOK] Now, as you work with clients, one part of the show that we sometimes cover is like the marketing and how even if you do great work and nobody knows you exist. It’s hard to make a business, so how have you found people find you to work with you or what marketing things have you done to get people to know about the work you’re doing? [DR. NALL] That’s a great question, Joe. Tapping, I have a problem., my problem is tapping is so effective that usually three one-hour sessions, people are done, so I’m constantly looking for new clients. The good news is people are done in three one-hour sessions, so they end up telling almost everybody, so I get a lot of referrals, I mean, a lot of referrals. I’m also listed national registries of tapping so when people are looking for tapping, they may gravitate towards me. My TEDx talk where I talked about how I used tapping to eliminate Math and test anxiety has been very popular. I found out my daughter, her sister-in-law texted my daughter to say, “You won’t believe what my instructor recommended.” Now my daughter’s sister-in-law is attending graduate school at LSU, and her professor suggested that they watch my TEDx talk to get over math and test anxiety. So I do get people who watch the TEDx talk and then contact me from literally all over the world. I’ve helped lovesick people in Spain, I’ve helped people who are overweight in Mexico, I’ve helped grief-stricken people in Canada. I’ve had parents from Switzerland hire me to help their students with Math while they’re in Belgium. I’ve helped people in India and in Asia, so yes, I’ve been doing Zoom for 12 years. I’m pretty comfortable. And it’s such a powerful, powerful technique that once people find out about it, they want to keep going with it. I’m very excited about the picture tapping that I’ve just recently been trained in, because I get a lot of people who, like you, Joe is like, okay, this one particular incident, this one time I have this one emotion. But then I have other people, especially in the last two years who walk in and say, “I’m just overwhelmed.” When I ask them and say, “Well, what is it that’s making you overwhelmed?” They just throw open their hands and say, “It’s everything.” Well, the traditional tapping asks you to be very, very specific to be effective but with picture tapping, I can have them draw picture after picture after picture of how they feel about being overwhelmed and we can get to the crux of it and resolve it and it’s done. It’s gone. [JOE] Now what, and this may be outside of your expertise and if it is, just let me know, but in regards to what’s happening in the brain through this somatic technique, why does it work? [DR. NALL] People are still trying to figure it out. Dr. Sally, who is a physician who really defined the concept of stress, saw that regardless of what chronic illness that somebody had, whether it was cancer, diabetes, heart problems, whatever, that every one of them, their adrenal levels and their cortisol levels were up. So he started looking at that a little bit more and realized that he defined stress, what we’ve found is that clinical studies that are doing, that are being done, like I said, worldwide, Dr. Paid Stapleton is doing so much work in Australia, they’re finding that this process of tapping actually reduces the adrenal levels and reduces the cortisol levels. So it counteracts that feeling of stress. More importantly, what they’ve found is that that particular incident doesn’t return, which is, that’s the most powerful part, I think. [JOE] Yes. Now, when you think about how you view your practice or how you set either goals or directions for it, are you a person that naturally lets things just unfold or you have very clear where you’re headed with it? How do you conceptualize where you’re headed next in the practice? [DR. NALL] Well, that’s a really good question, Joe. My answer may surprise you. My answer may surprise you because I’m a Mathematician and a lot of people see me as very logical scientific, and I’m also a tapping, but I’m, but I’m also very spiritual. So I do let things unfold as I feel I’m being led. Probably I’ll leave it at that [JOE] Yes, no, I think that that idea of having a certain direction, but then there’s so much outside of our control that if we’re just like fighting against that river, it’s like just going with it as much as we can to see where things are emerging or growing. What inspires you long-term? I mean, are there books? Are there podcasts? Are there people you follow that keep the new ideas and juices flowing for you? [DR. NALL] There’s a few different questions in there. What inspires me and motivates me is I am very goal-oriented. I mentioned that one of my life goals was to finish a Ph.D. I have another life goal and that is to be able to dance at every one of my five granddaughter’s weddings. The youngest one is two, so that means that I have to stay alive for probably another 30 years, stay healthy enough and I probably should learn how to dance. Those are life goals that have led me into becoming also a Chi gong instructor because Chi gong is meant, it’s also called the longevity exercise because it exercises your organs. I do a lot of reading. I’ve got about five books that I’m reading right now, lot of them are Chi gong-based and a lot of tapping things. So I do follow Gabor Matee, I don’t know if you’ve read of him. He’s a physician, a Canadian physician who’s done a lot of work on brain and addictions. He’s really fabulous. I’ve done, I’m reading more about Dr. Hans Sally, so I can better understand the origins of stress and go through that. [JOE] Well, Katie, the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? [DR. NALL] I think the big thing as a private practitioner is to know that you were put here with a purpose of making people’s lives better and just every day asking is what I’m doing, making people’s lives better? If it is, carry on and if it’s not stop and think about what you could be doing to make people’s lives better. [JOE] Awesome. Katie, if people want to follow your work, if they want to learn more about what you’re doing, watch your TED Talk, where is the best place to send them? [DR. NALL] I’m on all social media. My handle is my first name, last name followed by Ph.D. I’ll spell it out. It’s KATIEN as in November, ALL Ph.D. (Katie Nall Ph.D.) My TEDx talk is, if you go to YouTube I have a YouTube channel there. So people can see a lot more examples of tapping if they’d like. My TEDx is under, if they just do a search for TEDx Math anxiety, it usually pops up. [JOE] Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast. [DR. NALL] Thank you so much, Joe, for what you’re doing for the entire world. I appreciate you. [JOE] Thank you so much. [JOE] It’s interesting how a lot of these techniques start as it works, but we don’t know why it works. I mean, whether that’s EMDR or EFT or other things, a lot of times it’s people that are asking questions that are curious and creative and trying things and oftentimes drawing from really ancient techniques as well. It’s interesting to see science catching up with things that folks have been doing for a long time. We couldn’t do this show without our sponsors and our friends at Noble believe in using technology to enhance, not replace human connection. With Noble, your clients get access to between session support, through their automated therapists-created roadmaps, assessments to track progress and in-app messaging. Not only will Noble help you offer your clients the most transformative experience possible, but you can also earn some passive income while doing it too. Learn more and join for free over at www.noble.health/joe. Again, that’s noble.health/joe. Thank you so much for letting us into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day. We’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.

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