Have you ever wanted to work with the Jewish population? Are there certain things you need to know beforehand? Want to hear from a mental healthcare professional who focuses on the Jewish community?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Fay Brezel about how she helps Orthodox Jews get help with mental health and is working to fight the stigma and shame that still exists.
Meet Fay Brezel
Therapist and entrepreneur, Fay is passionate about transforming the way mental health and wellness is accessed in the Jewish world. She is committed to challenging the status quo through her platform OKclarity.
Fay Brezels’ Story
Fay was an Orthodox therapist working in the Jewish community and she saw that there was a need for her clients who were always asking her for a referral. She realized that the younger generation was going online and finding therapists that way and she created a platform that was relevant to the community and that spoke from a place of understanding.
In This Podcast
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Fay Brezel about how she helps Orthodox Jews get help with mental health.
The State of Mental Health In The Orthodox Jewish Community
I think we’ve progressed a tremendous amount, there’s oganizations that are springing up which I probably would not have known about had I not been trying to launch my own organization for mental health in the Jewish community.
People are more willing to get help for themselves and their families. But there is still that stigma and that roadblock about people being okay with the fact that they’re getting the help. It’s still laced with a tremendous amount of shame and stigma.
Clinicians Who Work With The Jewish Community
Any clinician who wants to work with the Jewish community, can. And the amount that they have to know varies on the client.
Some clients will want a professional who’s really culturally sensitive and nuanced and knows exactly what’s going on. Show your clients that you have a unique interest and curiosity in a very respectful way – keep an open mind, consult with colleagues and educate yourself.
Orthodox Jews are religious and consider themselves to be religious or frum. The Ultra-Orthodox Jews have a rabbi they follow in addition to the religious components that the Orthodox would follow. It can appear to have more restriction looking from the outside.
Your message has to come across in a sensitive, natural organic way.
- Educate yourself by meeting with people in the community, not just textbooks
- Meet with the rabbi, explain what you do and try to get more insight
- Sometimes the longer and more expensive route is going to be a better option in the long run
- Trust your gut and have a good relationship with the person you work with
You can reach out directly to Fay at email@example.com and get $20 discount off a yearly listing with OKclarity
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Meet Joe Sanok
Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.
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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session 375.
I’m Joe Sanok, your host and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. You know, one thing about me you may not know is that my undergraduate, although I have a major in psychology, I also majored in comparative religion. There was a couple of reasons for that. The comparative religion major was about as many credits as any other minor. So that was always beneficial to say it was a double major, but have to do about the same amount of work. But also, I’ve always been fascinated by religion, religious beliefs, philosophies, challenging those beliefs. I was raised Catholic, but, my dad’s Catholic from a Polish Catholic family, outside of Detroit, and then my mom is Protestant. She was raised Presbyterian, but then kind of went into some Unitarian for a while.
In high school I remember she really got into like the Dow and all sorts of other thing, and then, you know, I kind of converted out of that into, I was pretty evangelical for a while, but even during that phase you know, I think there’s oftentimes like this thought that evangelicals aren’t open-minded, which I don’t think is true. There’s a lot of awesome evangelicals out there, but during that time, I was a comparative religion major. I thought other religions were so fascinating and so I had a Buddhist traditions class, I had an Indian traditions class, I had an ethics class that was taught by a former SS Nazi guard, wo was speaking about ethics.
I had this fascinating class about religion in America, taught by Brian Wilson; not Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, but of other fame. He was actually one of the leading scholars on religion in America and we covered kind American traditions, but then also Central and South America and Mesopotamia and all these other areas of the world. So, for me, religion has always been something that I’ve had an interesting relationship with because family was pretty open minded. We’re in the summer my mom would take us to different churches or different experiences. We’d go to Passover feasts and my dad was pretty Catholic, but even that, he shifted, you know, kind of away from that.
So, religion for me has been something that I’ve found endlessly fascinating and I feel like the people that I often interview and that I feel connected with are people that have a depth to them where they question things beyond themselves. And so, I took a year from my undergraduate to my graduate work. I took a year off and I wanted to rediscover learning during that year. And so, I graduated in December and that ended with, let’s see, I led a group to New Orleans for alternative spring break. So, I graduated undergrad in three and a half years and so went to New Orleans and worked at a shelter for people that were in the final stages of AIDS called Project Lazarus.
I really decided that after I graduated that I wanted to spend this year just kind of seeing the world, understanding the world and exploring. So the first trip that I went on during that year was, I surprised my grandma with a long weekend in Paris and we went all over the place, Notre Dame which, you know, just at the time of this recording I know I record way in the future or in the past but that fire just happened yesterday when I recorded this. And so, it’s just heartbreaking. So, I surprised my grandma with a trip to Paris. I went to Nepal and went to some Buddhist monasteries, went through kind of the Himalayas up to a place called Gokey O’Ree, got up to about 20,000 feet, set off to a Buddhist monastery with my friend Todd, and then got chased by a wild rhino.
Then we went to Thailand and got to go to the temple of the lounging Buddha, [inaudible 00:04:51] and all these other areas that had really just fascinating temples. Then later in that summer, I went to Haiti and volunteered there with my mom and also was able to kind of get to know a voodoo priest down there. And then what else did I do that year? Then I went back to New Orleans and I stayed there for a month and lived at the shelter for people with AIDS and they gave me a place to stay there. Just basically volunteered with people in the last stages of AIDS. Oh, and that was the year that 9/11 happened too. So, a lot of stuff that year. But I feel like when you’re open to experiences, and when you have a pasture of learning and understanding, you can often ask questions that the average person wouldn’t ask.
So, I was at thanksgiving at the House of Blues in New Orleans, and I didn’t know I was talking to the general manager and he gave me this whole kind of behind the scenes tour of like the green rooms and all this other kind of cool spots and weird spots at the House of Blues. And it’s like when you ask questions and just say, “I just want to genuinely understand you more,” people are really open to talking about it. I think oftentimes we fear asking questions that we don’t understand. And today I’m so excited about this conversation with Fay because she’s an Orthodox Jew.
She started this website called OKClarity, which is aimed at helping mental health issues be discussed more in the Jewish community. It goes so much beyond that in regards to kind of a revolution and wanting to really help people understand, how best to serve the Jewish community and the discussion we have, the questions we ask each other is really a fun and fascinating discussion. So, without any further ado, here’s Fay.
Today in the Practice of the Practice podcast, we have Fay Brezel. She’s a therapist and entrepreneur who is passionate about transforming the way mental health and wellness is accessed in the Jewish world. She’s committed to challenging the status quo through her platform. OKClarity. Fay, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.
Even if the client is saying that it’s crazy because that’s their experience and they’re feeling suffocated about it I think it’s really important for the professional to not take on that attitude, like understanding that the client maybe thinks that that’s extreme, but to really like have that open mind of like, “Yes, but this is the community norm or this is how you see it and that’s really challenging.” But to keep an open mind and an open air ask questions from a place of respect and real curiosity and consult with colleagues read about the community. There’s places to read and if you don’t know about the community directly, it’s a sister, cousin, aunt’s, colleague away to knowing a really intimate look into a specific issue that maybe your client has that you’re not so equipped on and you want to have more know how on [JOE]: Yes, maybe take us through some of the major kind of, I don’t want to say divisions, maybe different like sub sections of Judaism, like reformed versus Orthodox. How do those communities differ? Like for me, I was raised Catholic and then for a while I went to a Protestant church, and so like, I know what maybe a Lutheran might be compared to what an evangelical compared to a Roman Catholic. What are some of those things that are nuances that are just some basics that people should know about Judaism? [FAY]: Oh, that’s a good one. I love this because I myself am Orthodox, identifies as an Orthodox Jewish woman but at the same time, I don’t know all the nuances because they are so complex. But because I’m from the community, I feel more comfortable not knowing. So that’s also another good message for professionals that are not Jewish — [JOE]: I mean, that’s great to know that you are Orthodox and you’re like, “I don’t really know all the nuances.” [crosstalk] Like, I mean it’s kind of refreshing for someone on the outside that might be like, “Oh, I have to know everything about theology and all of that.” [FAY]: Yes. No, you come off as so like strange if you do in a sense, meaning because, I mean like, okay, so you’ve studied this so you know that through the textbook. Like, you know, there’s nothing like knowing it from a person themselves. So of course, there’s a concept of knowing the basics. “Do I know all the nuances, like the difference between reformed conservative?” I probably should and I don’t but I do know — [JOE]: Just impression wise, what do you feel like are the differences that you see? [FAY]: Sure. So, the main ones are Orthodox is religious, you know, consider themselves religious or from as a big word, F, R, U. M. and then the ultra-Orthodox are more the Hasidish. So that would be they have more of like a rabbi that they follow in addition to all the religious components that the Orthodox would follow. And that can come off as like more religious, ultra-Orthodox, more, it can appear to have more restriction looking on the outside. [JOE]: What should people know about, you know, from the outside it feels like restrictions. How would someone that’s Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox describe those like quote restrictions? [FAY]: What’s a good one? It’s part of life and it’s something that we’ve come, you know, mostly and hopefully to love and appreciate and to not be able to imagine life without it and be like, “Holy cow, thank God. Thank God I’m Orthodox. I’m religious.” Like for example, Chavez, right? Like that. So, I would say one of the biggest differentiations is between a Jew and an Anji, right? [JOE]: And well, what is that if someone doesn’t know that? [FAY]: Sure, about Shabbat or Sabbath or Chavez? [JOE]: Yes. [FAY]: Yes. So, from Friday sundown until Saturday sunset, there is no using technology. It’s family time. I mean, I’m not going to go into all the religious aspects but, what it appears like is, that’s what I’m saying from the outside, like there’s an inherent beauty in it that you just feel a completely different sense of self and being. But from the outside what it looks like is like, “Oh my God, so you can’t work from 4:30?” One, it’s like, you know, we call it the shorter Fridays in the winter till Saturday night. Like you have no email, you’re not on email, you’re not on your phones, you’re not, nothing. Like, “How do you manage? How do you deal with that?” And it seems like so much restriction, right [inaudible 00:14:30] but then at the same time it’s like, “How would I manage if I didn’t have this?” Like, “I’d never stop.” [JOE]: Yes. No, that’s a great point. [JOE]: Imagine if you had time to slow down and work on your best ideas. If you believe in your practice, your big ideas and want to fast forward your growth, Slow Down School might be for you. At the core of Slow Down School, we’ve seen the biggest breakthroughs come when first we slow down. By using the best neuro research principles, we help you to optimize your brain. You’ll slow down, then speed your business up. Imagine a small group of high achievers that choose to pause the hustle to define what matters most then to sprint towards reshaping their businesses. Wouldn’t it be amazing? If you want expert guides, a supportive community, and time to slow down to speed up your business, apply for Slow Down School today, head on over to slowdownschool.com to apply today. It’s happening this summer on the beaches of Northern Michigan. [JOE]: It’s interesting, we got a new oven and there was a kosher setting on it and I’m like, “What is this?” It’s like you could like program it to like have its own Sabbath. Like you just can’t kind of turn it on. I was like, “Holy cow, these technologies. That’s super cool.” Well, it’s almost like it’s similar but different obviously like being raised Catholic and no longer being a practicing Catholic. For every lent, you know, there was these 40 days of giving something up and like even still when I eat, and I don’t eat many sweets, but if I do in like March or April, I have this like remnants of Catholic guilt inside of me. But there was also something that even though it was really hard, especially as a kid to like look at that piece of chocolate and be like, “Oh, come on, I know I can’t eat it.”
But to also then long for something that I hadn’t even appreciated, you know, in the past. And so that kind of idea of giving up. I was talking to a friend of mine who, he’s a practicing Muslim and he talked about Ramadan and how for them they view that fasting time as, it’s almost like a guest coming into the house. And for them it’s such a celebration that they couldn’t live without. And I think understanding how it appears on the outside, how you kind of first frame this up of, “Oh, it seems so restrictive,” but then say, well what does that mean to the community on the inside and where’s the beauty there? To me, to just go into it as a therapist from a posture of that, what does this mean to you? Like tell me more about that. I would think that that would help build that rapport.
[FAY]: Exactly. And like just because I’m saying that I appreciate the beauty that doesn’t mean sometimes it’s not hard and that doesn’t mean that your clients or the clients that are from the community don’t find a tremendous difficulty with it and don’t keep it and feel shame that they don’t. Like you were talking about the guilt related to lent. So, I feel like that’s something that you also, like if you’re going to just study the Jewish religion and be like, “Okay, good job. Holy, yes, beautiful.” And then your client comes in and they’re like, “Oh, I don’t keep it. I hate it but don’t tell anyone and it’s horrible and it’s awful,” and you’ll be like, “What do you mean it’s beautiful?” That would not cool. So that’s what I mean. It’s all about like really having that open mind like you said. [JOE]: Yes. What other kind of nuances do you think are important for people to know if they wanted to work with the Jewish population? [FAY]: I think a lot of it is pretty like in line with what a professional, a good professional would be. The trust piece because people are always afraid of, you know, do you know this person, that person? So, in the sense of someone not being from the community or familiar, they have an upper hand on with that because their potential client is not as afraid of not having other people know that they’re seeing them or seeing — [JOE]: Oh, so you’re saying someone from within the Jewish community would be more likely or open to seeing someone from outside of it so that there’s not overlap? [FAY]: In a sense, that can be a perk. Yes. So, I guess something for a professional to know is that that’s a big deal, people not wanting other people to know that they’re seeing a therapist or meeting with this therapist at this time, or seeing someone else in the waiting room, so to speak. [JOE]: Yes. Are there any other things kind of culturally that you would want people to know as kind of this kind of big picture before we kind of move onto the next questions I have? [FAY]: Culturally big picture, what would family it’s important that religion can be a piece of like a big issue that comes up. Also, the sensitivities that have to do with religion are important for, you know, again to understand like we spoke about and respect and understand how it can be like the rabbi, the family, like all these things are not just like cut and dry. It’s intricate and it’s complex and that’s going to be a big piece of working with the community, most of the time with the religious community. [JOE]: Okay. Now I want to kind of shift gears and talk about specifically marketing a practice towards, you know, seeing the Jewish community. And so, I mean, I’ve seen this done well in other areas and I’ve also seen it done poorly. So, for example, if people, they want to open up their practice to be more open and affirming towards the LGBTQ community or within like an evangelical Christian counseling practice. Like there’s ways that people do that well and there’s also ways that people do that, that it doesn’t go over very well.
It’s often not intentional, but it’s just total blind spots because they don’t understand what may come across as either offensive or might be kind of the way people decide on how to do therapy. So if someone says, “Yes, I live in an area that has a Jewish community or maybe even doesn’t, but I want to make sure that this is a part of my practice from a marketing perspective and a networking perspective, what do you think works but also, what do you think are kind of big screw ups people could do? [FAY]: That’s an interesting, good point. I think like the big screw ups probably are just like doing it in a way of like, I work with it having all that like copy or putting things out in a very obvious way. Like it has to come in a sensitive, natural, organic way that you work well with the Jewish community. That doesn’t mean that that’s not a place for you to market yourself, but it wouldn’t necessarily be from like web copy and those type of things or, you know, putting up the flyer and in the synagogue. You know, like people would think that because like, “Oh, the Jews congregate here weekly. Let me put up a flyer. I work with the Jewish community.” [JOE]: Counselling for Jews. [FAY]: Exactly. They won’t come flocking. It just doesn’t work like that. So, that’s a no-no that I can think of right off the bat. What you do, I would say is educate yourself from not just textbooks, but from people that you’re close to in the community that are religious or know the religious community, have a few coffee dates, meet with the rabbi and explain what you do. If there’s anything that you should know working with religious clients they will then come to respect you and refer to you, likely, especially if they know that you’re sensitive to this and would consult with them if you had questions or you’re open to consulting with whoever the clients’ rabbi was. So, that was kind of probably a to-do.
What else would be a good way? Colleagues that maybe are not as interested in that community and then can also, you know, refer out when they get someone that is interested in working with someone that’s familiar with the community and that, you know, takes that as a serious part of their practice and growing their experience and cultural sensitivity. [JOE]: Yes, those are awesome points. I really liked the idea of kind of talking with a rabbi and even just saying, “I want to be sensitive to like what I don’t know. Like I don’t know what I don’t know. Is it possible to buy you coffee or get lunch with you to be able to understand so that as I have more clients, I can be culturally sensitive and helpful and create those alliances and to create those kind of connections”?
I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about the OKClarity project because I love this and obviously have loved it for many months and helping you guys launch this and working together. When did you have the vision or what spurred on the idea of a directory, specifically the Jewish community that’s looking for counselors? [FAY]: So yes, it’s been like such an evolution. I myself, as an Orthodox, you know, therapists working in the community definitely saw that there was a need for my clients. My clients would come in and ask me for a referral and I would tell them, “Call this referral place called that one.” I never felt confident or comfortable saying like, “Go to this person,” unless it was a colleague who’s in the clinic and they don’t want their friend coming to the same clinic that they come to. So, I felt like, “Hey, the younger generation is going online, they’re finding a therapist through hashtag therapists on Instagram who is maybe not the best for someone that needs someone that’s culturally and religious sensitive. So why isn’t there a place where professionals in the community are showcased and a value driven professional way?”
I think therapists, I need to and I can say this because I’m a therapist myself, they are marketers for the most part. Like our work is intimate. We don’t like to flash ourselves and be like, “Hey, I can do this. I can do that. I can help you.” Ad it takes a lot of effort to put yourself out there. So, I said, “I can use this help and my colleagues are able to use this help. So why don’t I create something that can help everybody in the community as a professional, get out there but also really create that place that I would have wanted to go to as a younger teen looking for help or young adult reading things online that pertained to me in my community regarding mental health and wellness?” Like why isn’t there this place where not only can you find a professional but also read up on things that are more connected to you and that you can understand or written by people that really understand the context of your life, your community? [JOE]: Yes. So, take us through some of the I don’t want to call them pitfalls, but maybe speed bumps that you guys hit along the way or unexpected things. Because we have a lot of people that are joining our mastermind group around big ideas and a lot of us have these big ideas, but we don’t take action. So, what were some of the things that you were just surprised by? Like, “Wow, that took way more time or that was harder?” Like take us behind the scenes of putting together a directory site and some of the pitfalls you ran into and some of the things that maybe were easier to, or things that speed things up for you. [FAY]: Yes. Oh my God, there are so many. So, I think like my, it’s funny when you said like, some people just don’t take action but they have big ideas. So, everything starts with an idea, but ideas are also cheap. So, you have to balance those two things, like, “Yes, it’s amazing to have awesome ideas and keep having them, but they’re also cheap if you don’t act on them.” I think one of my issues, which I think are, I act like I can be impulsive almost, which they’re being like clinically impulsive, but like I’ll act. I learn through acting and that makes me run into a lot of bumps. So, for example, when we first launched, I know we were working with you and like, I guess I’m stubborn in a way. Like it’s hard for me to listen when I don’t understand and I understand through doing.
So, let’s say started a site on Wix. Even I remember you told me WordPress is the way to go and I came back to you after like a month or two or three. And I was just like, “Our site is done. I did it by myself for like $49 a month and I felt awesome.” And I think that boom, that’s like learning, like lesson number one. So that not only saved me time, like cost me so much time and heartache, but I was trying to be penny wise and pound foolish. You know, Wix is not scalable. Sorry Wix, you’re awesome for Karlie Kloss but not for someone that’s trying to build a business in this way. Maybe in different ways. For sure. So yes, like sometimes the longer route and the more difficult route and a little bit more of a financial expense is going to be in the long run your better option, like — [JOE]: Well I think that’s hard too because sometimes there’s so many people that want to take your money. It’s like there’s social media managers and website designers and regular designers and it’s just like, “How do you decide where to put your money that will actually give you a return on investment versus just kind of a snake oil salesman?” [FAY]: Right. Now, that’s definitely still a struggle, I think. I think that especially in the marketing world, people are like, it’s really difficult, but in everything. I think that learning to trust your gut and also to focus on like the relationship with the person that you’re hiring. Like if you don’t like them and they just promise they could give you a good job and cut you a deal, it’s a no, no. Because nothing’s ever as simple as it seems most of the time and you need to have like someone that you really trust. So, it’s not just about the bottom dollar always but I think also it’s trial and error. I wish I had the answer. [JOE]: No. I think that that’s what’s awesome. It’s that you don’t have all of the answers and none of us do. And so, you just kind of have to have a framework of, or a lens that you kind of put things through. I mean for me, I have some red flags where when I hear certain things about people’s websites, I’m like, “That website person doesn’t sound super great.” Or, you know, if you don’t really feel, and I’m not saying you, but if someone doesn’t fully know, like, what are they paying for that amount of money? And is that clear? Is my person giving me information that makes me understand the return on investment for this money and helps me frame that out and feels like they’re available or do they get frustrated and pushed back?
I just had a consulting client who was spending like $1,500 a month on a website and that was quote online marketing. And I’m like, “What’s the ROI on that?” She was like, “Well I haven’t seen any new clients come in for like four months.” And I was like, “What? Holy cow. We need to know why this isn’t working. These people are just taking your money.” And so, I think it is important when you do something new to like kind of dip your toes in the water and like you did that with Wix and then you realize, “Well, there’s no way I want to like scale it this way.” And some of it is that trial and error. [FAY]: Exactly. It’s so important and that’s what like sometimes you’ll try a few different people and you’ll end up spending like “wasting money” trying different people. But like, you learn from trying. You know, you’re trying with a smaller amount of money to try to understand your needs and what you need instead of like going for the big promises and the big box. So really trying to be, like test. Test everything, test even with hiring. I think is big. Like I can’t tell you how many different things I’ve gone through with, you know, different little projects, SEO writers, social media, you know, like, but again, if you keep testing with little tiny things and little monies here and there and you’re learning you end up saving yourself also in the long run, I think. [JOE]: Yes, absolutely. Well, so when people are launching big ideas, any things that you would just say, “I definitely recommend this,” and I know you’ve covered a lot already. Is there anything else around kind of launching big ideas that you’d say, “Oh, we didn’t hit on this and I want to make sure that I throw that out there?” [FAY]: I think, like learn about yourself in the process, like what type of person you are so that you know where you’re going to likely mess up which sounds like such a cliché therapist thing to say and I don’t even like see myself as a therapist so much so like for me to say that it’s just like, “Oh, seriously Fay, you’re saying that?” [JOE]: Well, Fay, if every private practice owner in the world were listening right now what would you want them to know? [FAY]: I would say use your time with your clients and your work to continue to expand your horizons whether it’s launching a new idea, letting them be your inspiration. Let seeing the world through their eyes, letting that be some of your inspiration and have an influence in a positive way towards the way you can contribute to the world. I think that’s the way big ideas are born not by living in isolation. I think as a private practice practitioner or working in a clinic, any therapist really has that unique, intimate look into so many different people’s lives, which is something that other people in other fields don’t get. They’re not privy to that. So, use that to inspire yourself. There’s nothing selfish about that. And then you can just continue creating great things for yourself and for the world. [JOE]: Oh, that’s so awesome. You know, throughout this conversation we’ve mentioned mastermind groups, we’ve mentioned one-on-one consulting. If any of you listening want to grow your practice or your big ideas, you can apply over@practiceofthepractice.Com/Apply. Fay, if people want to connect with you, if they want to get listed on OKClarity, what’s the best way for them to connect with you? And I think you said that you’re going to give them a discount also. [FAY]: Sure, that will be great. I would love to connect with them. They can feel free to email my personal email at fay@okclarity.Com and I would love to give them a $20 discount on the early listing. So that would be great and I’d love to have them join. I’d love to hear more about their private practice, their interest in working with the community, their experiences. The best part of what I do is speaking to other wonderful professionals. So, it’s really a treat just to come say hi. Just email me just to say hi. That’s also cool. I respond to everything personally. [JOE]: Oh, that’s awesome Fay. Well, I’m so proud of what you guys have launched. The design is beautiful, the interactions are awesome and I’m looking forward to it continuing to just grow as a directory. Thanks, so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast. [FAY]: Thank you, Joe. It’s been a pleasure, always. [JOE]: So, take Fay up on that offer. Reach out to her, get to know OKClarity and start serving a new community. It’s really important that we continue to build our knowledge and to get information from experts that are part of groups that are often underserved. So, reach out to her, take her up on that offer.
And we really want to thank Brighter Vision for being a sponsor of the Practice of the Practice podcast. They’re also a sponsor of Killin’It Camp. They have been such great supporters and create beautiful websites for you to attract your ideal client and to be able to keep your ideal clients. So, they’re helping you with blogging and SEO and being able to know where you stand and if what you’re doing is actually working. It’s so nice to have IT support like that. So, go to brightervision.com/joe and check them out. Let them know I sent you and it would be awesome for you to just connect with them. Thanks, so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing week. Bye.
Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy. We like your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate, authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host or the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.