Practical Sustainability: Circular Commerce, Smarter Spaces and Happier Humans with Corey Glickman and Jeff Kavanaugh | POP 762

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A photo of Corey Glickman and Jeff Kavanaugh was captured. Corey Glickman is Vice President at Infosys. Jeff Kavanaugh is Vice President and Head of the Infosys Knowledge Institute. Corey Glickman and Jeff Kavanaugh are featured on Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

How can you reduce the environmental impact of your private practice? Do the small sustainability changes really matter? What does sustainability in business look like?

In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about practical sustainability with Corey Glickman and Jeff Kavanaugh.

Podcast Sponsor: Noble

A an image of Noble Health is captured. Noble Health is the podcast sponsor to Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

According to a scientific brief released by the World Health Organization, between 2020-2021, global prevalence of anxiety and depression increased by a massive 25%. As a mental health professional, you have likely seen the effects of the pandemic and events of the past few years on your clients.

With the great need for both anxiety and depression support in mind, our friends at Noble just launched Roadmaps on Anxiety and Depression that offers your clients the education and tools they need between sessions to begin to take the steps necessary to reduce their symptoms.

Noble makes powerful therapy simple with their app that offers research-backed, automated, between-session support for clients, assessments, messaging, and more.

Learn more and join for free at

Meet Corey Glickman

A photo of Corey Glickman is captured. He is the Vice President at Infosys and leads their sustainability and design business. Corey is featured on the Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

Corey Glickman is Vice President at Infosys and leads their sustainability and design business, delivering smart space initiatives for clients globally. Together with Jeff Kavanaugh, he is the co-author of Practical Sustainability.

Corey is a member of both the World Economic Forum Pioneer Cities group and the MIT Technology Review Board and is a faculty expert at Singularity University. The American Institute of Graphic Arts named Corey one of the one hundred most influential designers of the decade.

Connect with Corey on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Meet Jeff Kavanaugh

A photo of Jeff Kavanaugh is captured. He is Vice President and Head of the Infosys Knowledge Institute. Jeff is featured on the Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.Jeff Kavanaugh is Vice President and Head of the Infosys Knowledge Institute, the research and thought leadership arm of Infosys, a leading tech and consulting company. He is an adjunct professor at the Jindal School of Management at the University of Texas at Dallas and author of the books The Live Enterprise and Consulting Essentials. Jeff has been published in Harvard Business Review and other leading business publications.

Visit Jeff Kavanaugh’s website, the Infosys Knowledge Institute, and connect with him on Twitter, and LinkedIn.

In This Podcast

  • Why sustainability matters now
  • Environmental, social, and governance
  • Advice for the jaded citizens
  • Practical sustainability in private practice
  • Jeff and Corey’s advice to private practitioners

Why sustainability matters now

The real short answer is that we recognize that this is no longer a world of infinite resources, [and] that equity needs to take place on all different levels [and] has to be addressed. (Corey Glickman)

As the population shifts, you see changes in cities and changes in economies.

The book that Corey and Jeff wrote was inspired by and takes its lead from a quote by Rachel Carson, about how human beings are at a point in technology and society where they can change the situation at present, and shift their destiny, if they choose to do so.

There are things that we can do. We’re not helpless, and we should not set goals for 50 years from now … we can do active things right now, and that was the sentiment behind [writing] this book. (Corey Glickman)

Environmental, social, and governance

[E] Environment: it is everything around you, from growth to waste. It is what you grew up with and the science behind it. Anything that relates to climate change is related to the environment.

[S] Social: human capital and talent, which is also an ultimate renewable human resource. It is also about being equal, fair, and equitable.

[G] Governance: this is the most overlooked, but one of the most important. Managing risk, companies, and governments to be fair and secure about data, privacy, and law-making.

E gets a lot of the attention because it’s about the environment and things you can see. S is getting more [attention] because it’s where people relate, and G [consists of] those things like institutions and structures that need to behave with integrity so that everything else can function. (Jeff Kavanaugh)

Advice for the jaded citizens

The average person is fed up. They recycle, bike to work, compost, and reduce their waste wherever possible while big corporations and governments may not be held accountable for their waste.

What can everyday people do to maintain practical sustainability without having to feel like they are giving up everything?

First of all, every small change matters … doing these small things actually [does] lead to big things … it’s the small changes that make the impact moving across there. (Corey Glickman)

Remember that in numbers, people have power. Massive change is possible with unified action.

Practical sustainability in private practice

  • Where are you getting your Cloud services from? You can find the specs of different services to see if they use renewable energy.
  • Scrutinizing what you need to store. Empty and delete what you no longer need to free up data and reduce digital and environmental waste.
  • Get more out of the technology that you have before you buy new computers and phones.
  • Reduce office waste. Use refillable coffee structures, reduce print, and use light-saving bulbs.
  • Use dark modes whenever possible on your devices and files.

Jeff and Corey’s advice to private practitioners

Jeff: You can do more than you think you can. You are in a unique position to make a profound impact on the world, and sustainability is a viable tool to help yourself and your clients.

Corey: There needs to be a North Star. There will be a lot of decisions that need to take place, but make them with the direction that you want to go in mind.

Books mentioned in this episode:

Useful Links mentioned in this episode:

Check out these additional resources:

Meet Joe Sanok

A photo of Joe Sanok is displayed. Joe, private practice consultant, offers helpful advice for group practice owners to grow their private practice. His therapist podcast, Practice of the Practice, offers this advice.

Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.

Thanks For Listening!

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Podcast Transcription

[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 762. Well, I’m Joe Sanok, your host and welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. As many of you know I’m a single dad raising two awesome girls, and one thing I care a lot about is the world being around for them or being habitable for them. We’re actually talking a little outside of our typical maybe way of thinking or things we cover on the show today. We’re going to be talking about practical sustainability and I’m really excited because we have Corey Glickman who’s a member of both the World Economic Forum, Pioneer Cities and the MIT Tech Review Board. Also, the American Institute of Graphic Arts, named Corey, one of the hundred most influential designers of the decade. We also have Jeff Kavanaugh, who is the chief learner and chair of the Knowledge Institute and does some amazing work at the Jindal School of Management at the University of Texas Dallas, and author of several books and also a Harvard Business Review contributor. So Corey and Jeff, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. Really glad the two of you are here today to chat about this issue. [JEFF KAVANAUGH] Thanks, Joe. [COREY GLICKMAN] It’s a pleasure to be here, Joe. [JOE] Well Jeff, maybe kick this off for us. How did you and Corey meet and start to collaborate to write this book? Practical Sustainability? [JEFF] We both have had long and I think fulfilling careers and we’re at a point where leading business units, we met at our current company. Between his leadership of the business of sustainability as a unit and my leadership of our thought leadership and research group we thought that this was both a business need and as importantly, it transcended business that sustainability is the mega trend that companies, governments, and people need to both be aware of and take action on, which I think psychologically is a fulfilling thing. We can see doo and gloom in headlines, but there’s so much good going on. As we learned the story that our company had for sustainability and what’s going on out there, the headlines don’t carry enough of the good news and so we wanted to make this both ahead in the heart project, and we think that the ripple effects are so profound that above and beyond any commercial opportunity, it’s really something that we need to do. [JOE] Well take us through the problem Corey, like what is happening right now in the world and like why right now does this book matter maybe more than even just a decade ago? [COREY GLICKMAN] It’s really an interesting question, and I’ll try to keep the statement to the right level here because this could be very complex. I’m sure we hear in the headlines every day about the environmental impact. We talk about social and we also talk about governance, and often that’s referred to at as ESG. But the real short answer is that we recognize that this is no longer a world of infinite resources. That equity that needs to take place at all different levels really has to be addressed. The world is not just western civilization. It’s happening globally across here. As we can see from world events, whether it’s Covid or whether it’s the conflicts that are happening in Europe right now, when you see large population shifts, you see changes in cities, you see changes in economies. What happens when you have an event that may or may not be in our control when there’s just a climate change and suddenly the coastlines all change, population shift. We talk about the economy and we talk about the cost of living and people’s mindsets about how do they stay optimistic or how do they say, do we have a control of what’s going on. I guess the way to summarize this is that when we wrote the book, and I was looking for that opening quote I’m from Pittsburgh and I grew up with the legends of like Rachel Carson and the important stance that she took in the 60s, the quote they put in front of the book was that Rachel Carson said that we are a society and at a point of technology, and this is back in the 60s where man can actually change the destiny of our situation if we choose to do so. That really is what set the book off to say that there are things that we can do. We’re not helpless. We should not just set goals from 50 years from now and leave it for another generation, that we can do active things right now and that’s really, was the sentiment behind doing this book. [JOE] Jeff, Corey just talked about environmental, social and governance. Talk a little bit about that, for those that maybe haven’t heard those categories or don’t fully know those categories, walk us through a little bit of just the basics people should know before we dive into how to apply this to private practice. [JEFF] E for environment, it’s the world around you. It’s waste, it’s the things that all of us know intrinsically we grew up with. There’s also the science behind that, with things like carbon in the atmosphere and certain aspects of waste in chemicals. So you can get that there’s a real science behind that and it’s critically important because anything that you know about climate change is related to the environment as is for social. Think about talent, human capital, which is ultimately, the most ultimate renewable resource. It’s in and it’s also about being equal and about being fair and all those things that are recognized more and more is important and vital in the workplace. S is for social, it’s also for social initiatives and non-government organizations. G is for governance, probably the most overlooked because it’s boring, but it’s about managing risk. It’s about being fair also. It’s about your data and your security and privacy and all those things with cybersecurity and about companies and governments running with accountability and integrity. E gets a lot of the attention because it’s about the environment and things you can see. S is getting more and more because of the way people relate and G are those things like institutions and structures that need to behave with integrity so that everything else can function. That’s the way we view E, Sand G. [JOE] I’m thinking about my own situation. I have a friend who he’s been really involved in environmental movements and making, like he bikes to work every single day all through Michigan winter. He takes cold showers like every day and not just for the whole, like Tony Robbins thing. He does it for an environmental impact. I see someone like that who is making these individual changes that for him are a big deal but it feels like it’s such a small change compared to like one corporation that just like blasts junk into the atmosphere. What can average people do that can actually make a dent in such a huge problem because for me, sometimes I feel like, I look at Washington DC and I’m just like, these people are not going to solve, maybe they’ll solve the problem, they finally get along, but most likely, like they just seem like they can’t even pass anything or agree on anything. That if we look at the next 20 or 50 years, we need some major changes to happen in government policy and regulations and all sorts of things. As an average citizen, for me, sometimes I just get fed up with it and it’s like, I’m recycling, I’m composting, I bike when I can. What more can an average person do? Is my hopelessness justified or is there some other perspective you can give me that might change my jadedness? [COREY] Actually, if I could start with this one, a couple thoughts here. First of all, every small change matters. Actually, doing these small things actually leads to big things. When you can get quite overwhelmed from trying to be big and to do this and certain institutions can, large corporations or governments can do certain things, but it’s the small changes that actually make that impact and the movement coming across there. There are things that I think we have learned for instance from going through the pandemic that said how am I going to deal with not being able to go into my workspace or not be able to do, get food in certain ways or meet with people or have those social interactions. We all adapted pretty much through, honestly, through a lot of digitalization whether it’s Zoom meetings or whether it’s using delivery services or other components. We were very fortunate to be quite honest, that we were in a world where that infrastructure existed of digitalization because I can’t imagine if we couldn’t do e-commerce or if we couldn’t have the computer sets. It really would’ve been a lonely existence and it could have been a lot more harmful. There’s still, I think a lot of mental images around there. But having said that, the idea of individuals, I keep journal myself every day and I say, what are the two or three things that I did that was in the right direction and what are maybe something that I didn’t do in the right direction? That could be a small saying I don’t use plastic bags anymore. I just don’t do it. I don’t ever accept a straw at a restaurant. I make sure that I do my recycling properly. I am much more conscientious on choosing certain product selections. So for instance, when I go to, I live in, I used to live in Michigan myself, I live in Pittsburgh now, I have a choice of buying milk in a glass bottle or in a plastic bottle. I use the glass bottles. So there are things that I do. Then I also have conversations with my family. I have conversations with my coworkers. I have conversations with my community where I can talk about what they’re doing, but I actually keep a journal and I look at it every day and I say, oh, I did these three things well, and I did do these two things quite so well. I try to learn every day from here. Those little things do add up. They add up both from a measurement perspective that they do make a difference, but more importantly it’s changing myself on how I think and look about things and also understand the situation of what you can do and what you can’t do. Because I think there are many people that have the right intention, but may not have the economic means or the options maybe that I have. So I think it has to happen at different levels. The last thing that I’ll say, and then I’ll turn it over to Jeff, is we also have to realize that there are many kinds of inclusiveness. not just gender-based or racially-based or however we want to say it. There’s poverty, there’s levels of education around the world, and we all have good solutions. Being able to understand that and appreciate that, I think is quite important. [JEFF] Well said, my friend. I’ll add a few things, maybe compliment them. First of all, for all the bad news, there is a lot of positive progress that’s happening. Can you imagine 50 million square feet under climate control, all going to carbon neutral? Can you imagine a 200-acre campus that’s water neutral, a company creating 60 megawatts of their own power and actually selling it back to the grid? That would be great, wouldn’t it? Well, guess what we found out, our company’s doing that, we’re doing that across India and some other places. That’s good news. It needs to be shared. That’s one of the reasons why we came out with the book. There are many other stories, some larger, some more modest, and that is positive and it’s uplifting. Also, what we find is science and data, they illuminate and they uplift because they lay bare your hopes and your fears and they give you something that you can really build on. So like, I just, just reel off a few statistics. One of the things we tried to do, the objectives that Corey and I had was to lay out in practical terms, science and data terms, although there’s some good stories, something that people can hang on to and say, “Oh, this is happening. Here’s an approach, here are some terms.” By doing that, it blows the fog away. You’re not just subject to whoever you happen to follow on Twitter or whatever news you happen to see. You realize there’s a lot of progress. You can argue if it’s not fast enough, it’s uneven, there’s still some things going on, wrong incentives. At the same time a lot of goods happening. So keep that in mind. Next, it’s almost like Victor Frankel’s Man Search for Meaning, which is just a profound book. I’m sure your audience has dog eared copies. It’s the infinite power of the human spirit. By doing the things like what Corey just mentioned, that empowers you and that gives you a sense of forward progress, momentum. Taken together it reaches a tipping point because humans vote and enough people vote, it goes a certain way and they take action and they have practices. So it absolutely matters, this momentum. This also translates, I believe, to a psychological counselor’s practice because what are you trying to do with your patients or clients? My daughter Catherine, who’s a fantastic counselor in her own right always says, “Dad, we have clients, not just patients.” It’s interesting that as that permeates your practice, both you as a practice leader, owner, principal partner, and you have your staff and you have your patients, your clients, by helping them in this mode, you’re giving them also ways to be more and more empowered. Because sometimes they’re struggling to find their search for meaning. They’re struggling and this is a way to get outside themselves in a small act of service or small act of progress. I think sustainability has a wonderful therapeutic element as well. Not greenwashing or some virtue signaling, but truly like your friend who’s just quietly going about his business of improving and doing these things. I think it builds something internally that is all kinds of good ripple effects. [JOE] I’m glad you bring up the good news. Corey, I also appreciate you pushing back on some of that. [NOBLE] According to a scientific brief released by the World Health Organization, between 2020 and 2021, global prevalence of anxiety and depression increased by a massive 25%. As a mental health professional, you’ve likely seen the effects of the pandemic and events over the past few years on your clients. With the great need for both anxiety and depression support in mind, our friends at Noble just launched roadmaps on anxiety and depression that offers your clients the education and tools they need between sessions to begin to take the steps necessary to reduce their symptoms. Noble makes powerful therapy simple with their app that offers research-backed, automated between session support for clients, assessments, messaging and more. Learn more and join for free at Again, that’s [JOE SANOK] So I wonder if we could use me maybe as a case study, so Practice of the Practice to walk through the business of what our environmental impact is being primarily online and seeing if there’s opportunities for Practice of the Practice to make decisions differently about how we do things or what we invest in. We’d love to just have you critique or give advice in regards to how we could have more practical sustainability with Practice of the Practice. [COREY] Sure. We won’t even charge you for it. [JOE] Okay, sounds good. So where should we start? What things would you need to know to advise me on what we could be working on? [COREY] I’ll go ahead and start. So I assume that you’re doing probably a hybrid model. I’m sure if you’re completely seeing people in-person still, or you’re probably have evolved where you’re always going to be doing some things online through Zoom meetings and other aspects, correct? [JOE] So I sold my counseling practice in 2019, so I’m just doing the consulting. I’m entirely remote. I have an office in my house, and so I do all the podcasting and consulting here from my house. Then we have a team of 10 or so that are in South Africa. Then we have three other consultants across the US and then two other support staff that are in the US also. [COREY] That’s great. On the positive ledger you’ve certainly cut down on transportation and the use of energy and fuels for people to get there and to have that in-person thing. It is interesting though that when we do Zoom meetings or other techniques and you’re using cloud and data services, those also have a footprint. You can make a conscious choice of where you’re getting your cloud services from. For instance, not all cloud providers are equal. You can actually spec under certain services to make sure that they’re using renewable energies in order to power your cloud services, therefore you’re having less of a footprint in that direction. I think the other aspect, which is very interesting we all love data. We love to store photos, we love to capture as much of this information as possible because it’s important and it’s powerful and it’s records, but we never delete what we don’t need anymore. That also takes up a lot of storage. So lots and lots of photos, lots and lots of videos or lots of data that could be deemed important at one time could be archived or even deleted at some point, if that makes legal sense. That also has a huge impact across there. I would say that at least from a interaction with your patients or your clients or people that you work with, I think getting smart about how you are using the energy sources that you’re choosing, even when you’re using these technology systems. The other thing that I could say is you don’t need to have a new computer or new phone every year or every three years. How to get more out of the components that you have in place. How do you do less print? Areas like that have actually a pretty huge difference. I would say if you have a coffee machine, like in your house, get away from the pods, go to the refillable components. I use these myself because for years I tried to figure out how do I take a pod apart and get to recycle, they’re never recycled and it’s something crazy. Like there’s 75 million households a day using these coffee pods over and over again. It would circle the moon how many times you see now on the earth. Things like that make a huge difference. You’re not putting them in the landfills. Cutting down on your printing, looking at where you’re getting your energy sources from, not storing extra data. Those are immediate impacts that have a pretty large footprint that you could have. [JOE] If I was going to look at like, say my web hosting isn’t renewable, using renewable energy but I like my web hosting, are there options for either purchasing renewable energy or ways to offset it? Or is it better to genuinely just switch over to a company that is doing that? [COREY] Yes, it’s an interesting question depending who your service provider is. I would ask your service provider. I think that they offer, just like I know, like with my house energy, I can get energy through my local provider that I have here in Pittsburgh, but I could also choose to get clean energy and sign up for that, where I know my energy’s coming from renewable. I believe that with some service providers with your data services, they probably, unless they’re advertising to you, can ask for it. If they don’t offer it, others are, that’s what I would say. [JOE] Okay. So if we’re thinking about any other areas, is there anything else with Practice of the Practice that you would say would be, especially for a primarily online company, would be good to invest in for the world, but also you had mentioned that this is a mega trend. Jeff, you had said that at the beginning, not that we want to do it just to market it, but if we want to influence other people and say, yes, we’re carbon neutral, what else can we do or would it mostly be those smaller steps? [JEFF] I’ll take that one for a moment. I think quickly, a couple extra smaller steps is a statistic that you might be interested in that while computers are wonderful, simply going from light to dark mode, that in itself is much more environmentally friendly because it reduces the energy, believe it or not. Second, the pages as you would design pages, if you could make them lighter and lighter, shaving off a single kilobyte on a file, these are major sites, but it’s loaded on a couple million websites, reduces CO2 emissions by 3000 kilograms a month. That’s five flights from Amsterdam to New York each month. So just simply by changing how you organize what you see, doesn’t change your computer, doesn’t change anything else, but just organize how you interact, you combine that with what Corey said and how you choose your service. Cumulatively, that adds up in a hurry. Again, there are things you can do to make it even cleaner, but guess what, If you just reduce energy, it’s even better. You’re avoiding it. On the mega level, I still go back to the infinite power of the human spirit by adopting this attitude. Think about it. Psychologists don’t often go in to get rich quickly. You’re in it because you’re serving the genuine empathy and practicing this attitude of grateful service. This is one more tool in the toolkit. Arm your patients, arm your staff and I think it creates a ripple effect. People are yearning. They’re just desperate for truth of the authenticity and trust now. How better to be authentic and trustworthy than to practice these things and then weave them into your counseling practice and that you can market even if it’s quiet and it’s more, either you can call it thought leadership or you can call it personal characteristics of your professional service. I think highlighting that aspect, because ultimately is your degree better than somebody else’s degree? Is it that competition? Is it who has the biggest billboard or what is it that distinguishes one practice from another or why you can charge a few extra dollars or not, or why you get that contract or not. Think about reverse engineering. Why people make decisions to go with a counselor. Why, I don’t know, a government or a provider or hospital chooses referrals. These are things that matter. You being able to include some standard language about what you do and, in your purpose, it isn’t what you do, even how you do it. It’s why you do it. That why is becoming the differentiator in consumers choosing a service and businesses choosing a service. So I believe that aspect has a tremendous both therapeutic effect for your patients and also a good commercial effect because it will quietly give a small edge every time a practice owner or leader interacts with the world. [JOE] How do you, Corey, how do you do that in a way that doesn’t seem like greenwashing where you’re just using that or maybe you’re not even doing it as well as you should be? How do you do that in a way that still feels authentic? [COREY] That’s a great question because greenwashing just everybody knows that’s when you say you’re doing something, whether you’re saying you’re recycling, but you’re actually not really following through with it. Or you’re reporting certain types of activities that you’re doing but it can’t really be proven across there. So we can talk a lot, but it’s about walking the walk through there. I would believe that the aspects of being measured, of whether you’re greenwashing or not is partially how you keep the data of what you’re doing. That’s part of why I keep a journal and there’s ways I can tell from my energy bills and other things, but I think when you’re interacting with your clients, they aren’t going to watch you and they’re going to see what you’re doing. for instance, I never allow anybody in any of my sessions to hold or use a plastic water bottle. They see by example. If they see you always handling a lot of papers, if they see a lot of electronic devices around you, do you really need all those devices? How many phones do you have sitting in drawers, for example? Then I think there’s also the sharing of stories of what are you doing in the community. I’ll digress a little bit, people ask me this question about what do I do and what did I do during the pandemic? I did two things, worked with Jeff to write this book because I felt there was less travel that I needed to do professionally, so there was therefore time to take on a project like this and make a difference. You don’t have to write a book to make a difference. You could do a local campaign, you can work in a local community center. It’s like working in food kitchens. There are things that you can do. The other thing is I realized that sustainability for me was more than just maybe the environmental side, but was really engaging with the community. I took on a personal challenge and I learned a new musical instrument and I ended up joining the city mandolin orchestra here in Pittsburgh and got involved at a different community level. That brought back an old art form, but I started engaging with a lot of other professionals that also said there was more to life than just work. There were things that we wanted to do to either preserve things that we thought were worthwhile in the past that should be brought into the future. I also made sure I got closer to my children who are both in their early twenties because I know they’re going through a very difficult time in the world right now. There’s unprecedented challenges. So how do they stay optimistic and how do they put things in perspective, but more importantly, how do I listen to them across there? I made sure that there were things I could do from my professional skills that could have impact, but then I also said I need to dive more into the community, into my family at this point and listen and look more and understand. I think it’s a personal journey across there, but I think you have to do both. [JOE] It’s so awesome. the last question that I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? Jeff, why don’t you kick this off for us? [JEFF] That you can do more than you think you can, and that you are at a unique position to make a profound impact in multiple ways for your clients and that sustainability is a viable fulfilling tool that not only will help your clients as you weave it in. It will help yourself. [COREY] What I would add to that is, and I just don’t know your profession, you know that well, even though I personally do have a therapist that I work with just because life’s very complex here and I really want to be the best I can be with my family and to my faith and to my community and my workers, is that there needs to be a North Star. There needs to be an ability to know that there’s a lot of decisions that take place that we do, that are large and small, and that I honestly believe we all try to make the best decisions possible at a given point of view. But we all need help in discussions from a third party to help us keep perspective and to learn. I’ve also learned that no therapists are perfect either. So I just think it’s very hard to be fulfilled just through your work and even just through your family. You need to get that perspective. You need to be flexible. You need to realize that perfection is never going to be obtained, but the ability to get up every morning and say something good’s going to happen today. Or if not, everything’s perfect today. It’s okay if it’s a 40% day. This is how to get through things. If I can actually improve the world around me or if my kids, that’s very important for myself across there. I think therapists play a huge part in this, and I think sustainability can be a very scary thing. We hear about, oh, water levels are going to rise and the air is not going to be breathable and it’s going to get very hot. That all could be very true, but you know what, we’re going to have to go on. We have this ability at a personal level to make it better and hopefully change destiny. We don’t have to just listen to the news to say, oh, this is the way it’s going to have to be. I think this generation that we have right now is more informed and more active than any that I can know in my 60 years of experience of living. I think that if they are able to access the balance of not just hearing information, but knowing that they should have the confidence to make decisions and that it’s okay to talk to individuals and to form communities, then I think that’s our best hope and I think we can solve anything. [JOE] Ah, so awesome. If people want to get your book, if people want to learn more, where’s the best place to send them? [JEFF], is a broad repository for our content. For the book itself, just go to, first of all, it’s on any major book seller, or you could go straight to Amazon and look it up. If you want to look a little more about it, Corey and I, you just drop our names in there, you’ll be able to find us pretty easily. If anybody’s interested, especially in this link with psychology and sustainability or running a practice I’d be happy to respond. [JOE] Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast. [COREY] Well, thank you, Joe. It’s been a pleasure to be part of this discussion. [JEFF] Right, back to you, Joe. Enjoyed it. [JOE] Well, I’m always interested in what you’re going to do with an episode. I frequently talk about how just like with food, if you consume, consume, consume and then never do anything with it it’s not going to help you actually make the progress that you need to make. So what are you going to do with this? Drop me an email, Send me a message on Instagram, wherever. Let me know what you’re going to do with this episode because we covered so many practical things that can help your practice really address sustainability issues. Even just little things like changing to dark mode, that’s amazing. I didn’t know that. I learned so much in today’s episode. We couldn’t do the show without our sponsors and I’m so excited about Noble. According to the scientific brief released by the World Health Organization, between 2020 and 2021 global anxiety and depression increased by 25% and as a mental health professional, I’m sure you’re looking for resources. Noble has roadmaps on anxiety and depression that you can offer to clients. They have powerful therapy tools that you can use that’s backed by research. You can read more and sign up for free over at Again, that’s Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.