The Enneagram Heart Triad with Whitney and James P. Owens – Part 2 of 3 | PoP 542

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Are you type 2, 3, or 4 enneagram personality types? How do you work with these types in your private practice as the owner? What can you do to encourage these types to work the best in your practice?

In this 3-part repurposed podcast episode series, Whitney Owens speaks with James P. Owens about the Enneagram heart triad.

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Meet James P. Owens

James P Owens is a pastor, podcaster, and self-described Bible geek. He is a graduate of Denver Seminary and Duke Divinity School and the host of Hermeneutic of Resistance, a podcast about interpreting the Bible in ways that resist oppression and open doors for human liberation.

Visit his website. Connect on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Listen to his podcast.

Meet Whitney OwensPhoto of Christian therapist Whitney Owens. Whitney helps other christian counselors grow faith based private practices!

Whitney is a licensed professional counselor and owns a growing group practice in Savannah, Georgia. Along with a wealth of experience managing a practice, she also has an extensive history working in a variety of clinical and religious settings, allowing her to specialize in consulting for faith-based practices and those wanting to connect with religious organizations.

Knowing the pains and difficulties surrounding building a private practice, she started this podcast to help clinicians start, grow, and scale a faith-based practice. She has learned how to start and grow a successful practice that adheres to her own faith and values. And as a private practice consultant, she has helped many clinicians do the same.

Listen to her podcast and connect on Instagram. Apply to work with Whitney and consult with Whitney

In This Podcast

  • The heart triad
  • Type 2
  • Type 3
  • Type 4

The heart triad

Also colloquially known as the feeling triad, it contains the enneagram types 2, 3, and 4. Each type is characterized by the way they do, or do not, deal with their emotions and feelings. These types are characterized by the way they seek love from others.

Type 2

Enneagram type 2 is also characterized as the Helper. At some point in their childhood, type 2s learned that the way to be loved is to be indispensable or helpful to others.

  • They seek love in the world by helping, caring for, and being good friends to people. They are kind and compassionate and are good at putting the needs of others before their own.
  • However, this can create a shadow side. One of their struggles is creating boundaries and knowing when to say ‘no’ to other people because their basic fear is to be lonely or unloved.
  • They may struggle to express their own emotional needs and therefore they can grow resentment for other people who do not ‘automatically’ know how to help them.

Type 2 is compliant and seeks out the community and works well in a team. They are natural friend-makers.

If you are a group practice owner as a 2, some things to be aware of:

  • You may be overly focused on just making people happy, and so you may miss out on what they actually need that could be hard to give or say to them.
  • They can be excellent leaders by being self-aware enough to do the hard work when it needs to be done.
  • Type 2s respond well to positive feedback and receiving affirmation.

Type 3

Also known as the Achiever or the Performer, they are a success-oriented type. They want to succeed and win and avoid failure. At some point in their lives they received the message that in order to receive love, they had to be successful.

  • They ignore their feelings, they are characterized by ignoring their feelings. They are ‘too busy’ to feel their feelings.
  • Due to being success-oriented, they excel at many things and are charismatic leaders. They will always try their best to do the best job.
  • However, they may tend to exaggerate their achievements. They can adapt to any situation they find themselves in, but it can lead to an underdeveloped sense of who they are.
  • They may struggle to name and connect with their feelings. What can help this is to slow down, reflect, take a deep breath, and try to connect and identify what you are feeling.
  • Type 3 is the more assertive and aggressive stance.

If you have a type 3 in your practice, try to:

  • Tell them about their wins. When you give them some correction or feedback, start off with positive affirmation before giving criticism because they fear being a loser or not being good enough.
  • They appreciate typical kinds of awards in the workplace.

Type 4

Also known as the Romantic or the Individualist. Type 2 externalizes their emotions, type 3s ignore their feelings and type 4 internalizes their feelings. They tend to be sensitive, emotional, artistic, and melancholic.

  • Along the way, type 4s got the message that in order to be loved, they have to be unique. They are on this quest to be themselves. This is motivated by the fear of having no significance, of having no identity.
  • They have a withdrawn stance. They are more introverted and quieter.
  • They have a brilliant ability to understand the emotions of others as well as handle their own emotions. Type 4s can easily sit with you and provide you space where you can express your feelings without judgment because they can hold the emotional space well.

However, Type 4s also have pitfalls:

  • They can be overly sensitive to criticism and may play the victim sometimes.
  • In their desire to be unique, type 4s may force themselves into a role in the group that does not inherently suit them. They want to be unique, they make themselves so unique that they do not fit in at all – like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  • Type 4s may fall prey to feelings of envy and jealousy.

If you have type 4 employees in your group, be aware that:

  • They may come across as very emotional. They may need more emotional space to process things.
  • They can be sensitive to criticism and even though they may do things in their own way, they can do them well.

Books mentioned in this episode


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Meet Joe Sanok

private practice consultant

Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.

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Podcast Transcription

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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session 542.
[WHITNEY OWENS]: Today, we’re doing the third episode in a four-part series all on the Enneagram. So if you did not catch the first two episodes, please go back and listen to those because they’re awesome and they do kind of build on one another. And today I have, again, James P. Owens with me. This is not only an Enneagram expert in my mind, but also my husband, so it’s exciting to be able to do a series with him. Today we’re going to talk about triad number two or the second triad, I guess which does include the number two, which is the heart triad. And so, James, thanks for coming on the show again today.
[JAMES OWENS]: Yes. I’m glad to be doing this again. The Enneagram is awesome and there’s so much interesting stuff to talk about with it, but like you said, we’re going to get into the heart triad or feeling triad today. That’s the Enneagram types, two, three, and four. Each of these types are characterized by the way they deal with or don’t deal with their feelings. All of these types are looking for love, looking to be fulfilled with love. Certainly we all want love, but these types in particular are characterized by the way that they seek love from others.
[WHITNEY]: Great. All right. Well, let’s go ahead and just jump in because I think we have a lot to cover on each one. So I guess we would start with the number two.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely type two would be the first type of the heart or feelings triad. Type two, you might remember from the intro episode is sometimes called the helper type twos are characterized by the need to be needed. As I mentioned in the first episode, somewhere along the way in their childhood twos internalize this that the way to be loved is to be indispensable or helpful to others. So twos are seeking love in the world by seeking to help, provide for, nurture, care for, and be a good friend to other people. So for this reason, twos bring a lot of really awesome gifts to the table. They’re kind, compassionate, they tend to be servant-hearted. Twos have a great ability to put the needs of others before their all. But of course, that also creates the shadow side. In addition to all these wonderful gifts twos struggle in a variety of ways. One of them is with setting boundaries and you can kind of see how that follows from what I’ve said already about those who are dominant in type two, that if your personality is built around meeting the needs of others, then you’re going to struggle with setting boundaries. Knowing when to say no to other people, that can be very hard for a type two because their basic fear is to be lonely or unloved.
And so they often find themselves in an endless cycle of trying to meet the needs of others in order to win love, thus ignoring their own feelings in many cases. Twos are great at feeling the feelings of others, knowing what other people need before they need it even themselves, kind of meeting those emotional needs, but often they struggle to express their own emotional needs, to ask for help when they need it. That many times two find themselves standing around thinking, “Well, gosh, can’t everyone just see what I need and isn’t someone going to come and help me? Obviously I need help. Can’t you see that?” Because they can see it in other people, but the rest of us may not be so good at pointing that out.
You know, we’ve talked about in the triads, the ways that the different types take different stances as well. And so twos take the compliance stance. This means that they move towards other people. So that seems pretty natural when you think about the two personality that a two is going to be a type that moves towards other people, that seeks out community, seeks out teamwork and wants to kind of build that really communal atmosphere. Twos our great friends and naturally become friends with those they work with. So I guess I would say if you are a group practice owner, if you supervise employees in any way, or you’re a counselor of any kind as a two, some things to be aware of, or that you might be overly focused on just making people happy. You might be overly focused on making your clients happy, making your employees happy. And in that way you might miss out on something that they really need that might be a little harder to get at. You might just be focused on making people happy and not on the real kind of growth that they actually need.
[WHITNEY]: Yes, all really good thoughts there. We’d have a of twos that are therapists, as everyone can understand, trying to help people. It’s one of the most common numbers that I find, honestly, not so much in my consulting work, but more so with my clinicians. I have a lot of twos. I guess twos might not necessarily want to own the practice, but they want to kind of support people and support the business, I guess. Would you say that?
[JAMES]: Yes, I think that’s right. Twos often find themselves sort of attracted to support high positions or maybe not being the one in charge, but being the second in command, the trusted advisor to the one who is in charge, a good employee. So yes, I think you’ll likely have two employees, if you are building a counseling practice and you’re looking to hire counselors. Certainly, as you said, lots of counselors are type twos. And I imagine that they’re excellent at it because that personality lends itself so well to it, to the work, but yes, you might not find the twos as much being in charge. Nevertheless type twos are great at all kinds of things and can certainly be excellent leaders and be in charge as well if they are self-aware enough to kind of do the hard work that they need to do.
[WHITNEY]: Sure. I do have employees that are twos. And so one thing that’s really been important for me as their boss is to acknowledge when they do good work, because a lot of times too, it feels like people don’t see what they’re doing or the good work they’re doing. Like you were talking about their needs. It’s really being able to verbally say, “That was really great, what you just did,” or, “I really trust you. I really appreciate you.” Like they get a lot of growth and a lot of, I don’t know that just the affirmation is really important for them more so than some of the other types that I’ve noticed on the Enneagram.
[JAMES]: Yes, that’s absolutely true. Twos are very image conscious like threes, but they also very much respond to that positive feedback. They’re not necessarily the ones to take the rewards in terms of money or material possessions, but they absolutely want to have that kind of positive feedback, receiving words of affirmation, receiving love in that way.
[WHITNEY]: Another thing I’ve noticed with twos and this is for my employees, but also the clients we work with is they don’t seem to do the best job at verbalizing their needs because they spend so much of their time noticing everyone else’s needs. They either don’t notice their needs or they just don’t know how to ask for things. And so a lot of times I need to speak up for my two’s there and say, “Hey, you think you might need this,” or just provide them with something that I think they need without them having to ask for it. I also find that my twos tend to kind of lay their needs down for the practice and, “Whatever the practice needs I’ll do it,” which obviously makes me super happy. But ultimately it’s going to make them burned out, drained, and then they’re going to come back and set a boundary. So it’s helping them see, “Hey yes, I love your attitude, but let’s set some healthy boundaries for you. So this can be a little bit more long-term in that you’re not just giving up yourself all the time. It’s not sustainable.”
[JAMES]: Exactly. It’s not sustainable, but boy, let me tell you if you know it too, and you can find what they need or want and give it to them before they have to ask for it. That too will be your friend forever, because that is exactly what, they do struggle to voice their own needs but love it when other people can meet those needs. And they really do need that, because twos spend so much time giving to us and serving us and loving us and they need us to step up and give back a little bit. But like you said, helping to create those boundaries, setting boundaries is one of the things that twos struggle with the most. There’s kind of that danger of codependency often. Twos are certainly not the only type that can develop codependent relationships, but that is a particular struggle when you have a type that does struggle with setting boundaries in the ways that many type twos …
[WHITNEY]: Yes. That’s what I see mostly in the clinical work with clients that they come in with those codependency issues and then when you show them the Enneagram and what a two is, they all of a sudden, everything makes sense and then they can start setting those boundaries.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely.
[WHITNEY]: Great. Okay. Let’s move on to three.
[JAMES]: Yes. So type three is called the achiever or the performer. These are success oriented types who want to do their best, avoid failure, and win in all situations. Somewhere along the way, three has got this message that the way to get love is to be successful. And we talk about three as being in the feelings triad or the heart triad. You know, now two’s expert analyze their feelings. They look to the feelings of others and they sort of feel the feelings of others. Four’s, which we’ll talk about in a minute, internalize their feelings. They feel their feelings very deeply internally. Threes on the other hand, ignore their feelings. So while they are in the heart triad characterized by how they deal with their feelings, they’re characterized by ignoring them. Threes are too busy to feel things. They’ve got too much to do.
And they do a lot. Threes are very active. As I said, very success oriented. They can achieve so many wonderful things. A three is a type of person who can win others over, can sell just about anything, can be the upfront charismatic leader, speaker that you need. It is someone that will always do a good job because they are so success oriented. There are three, the achiever, the performer. And so their basic desire is to feel valuable. So kind of, as you said with twos, it’s pretty similar with reason. If you have a three working for you in your practice, tell them about their wins, tell them how good they did. You know, if you’re going to give them some correction or tell them something they didn’t do so well, start off with sort of lead with some wins. “Hey, you did this really well. You really killed it here.”
And then follow up with, “But here’s some things you can continue to improve upon.” Because they’re their fear is that they would be worthless or a loser or not to win, not to be successful. So that’s a little bit about managing threes. Now, some of the other pitfalls that threes might deal with are that they may tend to exaggerate their own achievements, tend to deceive themselves into thinking that they’re more successful than they are believing their own hype, so to speak. Threes also will adapt to whatever situation that they find themselves in. They’ll sort of become whatever they need to succeed. This is good because they can succeed that way, but it also often leads to an underdeveloped sense of who they really are personally. You know what I mean, threes become sort of chameleons and don’t have a strong sense of their personal self. They’re just being whatever they need to be to win or to achieve.
Finally, I guess another pitfall would be that threes can struggle to name and connect to their feelings. Like I said, they ignore their feelings. Almost more than any other type, threes really struggle to feel their feelings. So one of the things that is really helpful, if you are a type three, or if you work with type threes is to slow down, reflect, take a deep breath and connect with your feelings, connect with what’s going on emotionally. Because if you’re a three, you’ll find that the things you were doing and you were probably doing a lot, are really coming from your feelings. You just may not realize that. Threes don’t so much feel their feelings as they do them. And it’s important that they do that work of growing in their self-awareness in order to realize how their actions are really being motivated by the feeling.
[WHITNEY]: So great. Thank you. I’m thinking about some threes right now.
[JAMES]: Yes, there are a few …
[WHITNEY]: Three are so like, they’re so charismatic and the whole chameleon thing. Like they can adapt to any situation so people are really drawn to them. And I think about different people, “I’m thinking you’re probably a three because you’re so likable,” and then they take the Enneagram and they pop up as threes and seven.
[JAMES]: Yes, sevens are very likable too. We all love seven and they make us laugh and smile. So I would say, if you are a three practice owner, you’re probably doing awesome. So I probably don’t have to say a lot to you. Just be mindful of the feelings of your employees or the people that work for you because you’re not naturally attuned to feelings or you’re naturally inclined to push feelings aside and move on. But you may be supervising employees for whom that’s not how they want to do things. Your two, your four employees, sixes, other employees may need some space to feel their feelings, to be a little bit more emotional than you’re typically comfortable with. And as three it’s hard for, it may be hard for you to give them that space, but it’s really important that you do.
If you have three employees, like I said, make sure that you are publicly acknowledging their successes. This is what threes live for, to be praised as winners. You know, not in an excessive way or in a gloating way or in a way that puts down other people, but in a way that affirms them and really builds them up. Say, “Hey, you did a really great job for me and I really appreciate that.” Threes generally appreciate the typical kind of rewards; bonuses, raises, the corner office, all the things that people typically look to in work as rewards or motivations. Threes are going to generally speak that up. Of course, I would say sometimes the kind of work businessman type three is a stereotype, it’s not helpful because all threes have slightly different definitions of what winning or success is. And so they may look really different based on what their own personal definition of success.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. One of the other pitfalls I’ve noticed, and you kind of touched on this, but I’ll speak a little bit more to the part that I see is they’re always moving, like taking on everything. So they’ve got to run a practice and then they need to have two side hustle businesses on the side and it kind of becomes difficult for them to do anything super well unless they really systematize and have detail oriented people because they tend to see things big picture. They see a lot of excitement and, “Hey, I’m going to start a podcast” or, “Hey, I’m going to do this consulting on the side,” or, “Hey, I’m going to do X, Y, and Z.” But then it’s hard for them to know all the details of what they’re doing. So then they get super overwhelmed, super fast. And so when I’m consulting with three, so I’m like, “Okay, slow down and really think through these things because yes, that’s just kind of your movement. You need to like pay attention to how you feel and what’s going on in your current phase before you move on to something else.”
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. I think threes totally get jazzed about new, big ideas. They are absolutely big picture people. And so they get excited about these new ideas, these sort of inspirational things, and this is awesome. It’s one of the things I love about, I have often said that if I were not a five, you know if I could choose my own number I would choose to be a three. I wish that I could choose and to have the capacity for doing all the amazing things that threes can do; to have the ability to not be as awkward as I am in social situations. So often to really win others over whenever I want, to inspire others in the way threes can. I would love to be a three. I’m just throwing that out there, but —
[WHITNEY]: Yes, threes are good people to work for too.
[JAMES]: Yes, exactly. They tend to be great leaders.
[WHITNEY]: They are successful.
[JAMES]: But threes do need to keep around themselves other types to kind of keep them grounded. You know, like I said, a three might get really jazzed about some new idea, but they might need like a type six or a type one or a type five to say, “Hey, wait a minute, have you really thought, like, let’s really think about the logical details that you’re going to need to be accomplished in order to get this done. And we may find working as a team that you’re able to do that.” Another thing real quick about type threes, we’ve talked about the stances as well. So type threes, of course, they’re in the feelings triad, but they take the assertive or aggressive stance. And that means that threes move independently or move against other people.
So threes are kind of out there, I think moving independently is a great way to describe what threes do. Threes are doing their thing, and you can jump on board. They certainly want you to, but they’re going to do it, whether you’re on board or not. Threes move independently of other people. So you’ll see them doing all these great things, but they may not seek out teamwork and team building as much as say, like a two or a one or a six might. So that’s important if you’re a three and you’re a business owner or practice owner or whatever. You may need to be aware of that your employees might need a little more from you than what you’re getting them. They might need a little more guidance, a little more teamwork, a little more community than what you’re naturally going to provide.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. I actually find that ones and threes work really well together because the three see the big picture and the ones see all the details and it seems like it would be a three owning a business and one being an assistant. But actually I am a one and then my assistant is a three and she is incredible. And so I love like the compliment of those two numbers.
[JAMES]: Yes. I would think threes and ones would work really well together because they both want to do things very, very well. They will both want to do things excellently. Motivated a little differently, you know, one’s being motivated by that desire for moral goodness and perfection, whereas threes are motivated a little more by success. Sometimes those things may bump up against each other a little bit, but in general, if your goals are aligned yes, three and a one are both going to go hard for the same goal.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. All right. So how about fours?
[JAMES]: Okay. Yes, so the final type of the feelings triad or heart triad is the type four, the romantic or the individualist. As I said earlier on, type twos externalize their emotions. As I said earlier on type twos, externalize their emotions and feel the feelings of others, type threes ignore their feelings and type fours internalize them. The type fours are feeling a lot of feelings all the time, very deeply. Fours do tend to be sensitive and emotional, are often very artistic, a little bit prone to kind of this, sort of melancholy Bohemian kind of attitude. Somewhere along the way, romantics or individualist type fours got this message that the way to be loved is to be unique. So fours are on this quest to be themselves, to be unique, to be different than others. They generally see themselves as being very different.
“No one is like, no one is quite like me. I’m unique, I’m different.” And that’s motivated by this fear of having no significant, this fear of kind of having no identity, if you will. Now type four is a little differently than twos and threes. They take the withdrawn stance. So type two is the compliance stance in the feelings triad, type three is that sort of stance or aggressive stance in the feelings triad, and type fours take the withdrawn stance. This means that they move away from other people. So type fours might appear to be a little bit more introverted, a little bit quieter. They’re generally kind of doing their own thing a little more than twos and threes.
Some of the gifts of type fours are that they are artistic. They have a great eye for beauty. But in terms of thinking about a four as a counselor or in any kind of helping profession, the real gift there in type fours is their ability to understand emotions and to be comfortable with the emotions of others. Fours have an amazing capacity to sit with others in emotions that are extremely difficult for other types to feel or to understand. Emotions that we think of as negative that we may want to kind of push aside or ignore, you know, feelings of sadness, grief, loss, failure, pain, all of these things, type fours are a little bit more comfortable with than the rest of us because they felt them in themselves deeply and as intensely as anyone. And so when someone is feeling that kind of an emotional, when someone is feeling emotions like that, one of the best types that you can go to is the type four, because they will sit with you and not judge your feelings and let you feel them. Of course they have great gifts in that regard.
Some of the pitfalls in fours are that they may be overly sensitive to criticism. They may play the victim a little bit. In their desire to be themselves, to be unique, fours may kind of force themselves into a role where they’re not part of the group. But this is kind of one of the pitfalls for fours; is that they want to be unique. They want to be different. So they make themselves so different that they don’t fit in. They think, “Well, I don’t fit on. I’m different.” And so it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if you know what I mean? Yes, and so Enneagram teachers often say that the deadly sin or the main pitfall of type fours is envy or jealousy. So fours feel like everyone else has it so much better than they do. So if you’re a type four and you’re a group practice owner or business owner, counselor of some sort, be aware of those feelings of envy or jealousy that you might feel like other counselors, other business owners have it more together than you do, that they’re doing something so much better than you are.
That’s probably not true. You’re probably doing just fine and you have your own unique way of doing things and are contributing really positively to the world. If you have four employees be aware that they will come across to you, perhaps as very emotional. They may need a little more emotional space than other types do. Be aware that they may be overly sensitive to criticism and be aware that even though they will do their things in their own unique way, they have tremendous gifts for this kind of work that we’re talking about here.
[WHITNEY]: Yes. In my consulting that I do, I don’t really encounter too many fours as business owners. I’m sure they’re out there, maybe threes with some four traits sometimes, but I do see a lot of fours that come in for clinical counseling. And it’s a lot of what you just said, like helping them to understand their uniqueness and like affirm that within them and giving them that place of identity is a lot of that work. And then also helping them to manage their emotions because they experience so many emotions. They unfortunately are throwing them all around, saying inappropriate things or doing inappropriate actions to try to deal with their emotions when really it’s totally unhealthy. And so helping them to learn, even if it’s DBT or other coping skills to be able to manage those emotions is really helpful for fours.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. So those are the types of the heart triad; type two, type three, and type four.
[WHITNEY]: Great. Well, I’ve loved doing the series with you not only because you’re James and I love you, but I also liked doing the series with you because it’s really cool. Like we’re able to talk about different parts of the Enneagram and how it actually happens within the counseling settings. I feel like we can get a lot of information about the Enneagram, but here we’re able to really talk about what it looks like managing a practice. So I’ve really enjoyed doing the series.
[JAMES]: Yes, absolutely. And of course the Enneagram goes so deep and there’s so many aspects of it that we’re not going to be able to get to in these episodes. I’ll mention again, I encourage your listeners, if they’re interested in this to begin to explore the Enneagram for themselves, if you’ve never identified your dominant type, maybe take a test, you can check out, there’s free tests online. There’s some ones you could pay for. The Enneagram Institute, on their website has a good test that you do have to pay for. Of course the tests are not the end all be all. They’re not the only way that you could identify your type. You should read about each type and decide for yourself, which one you think fits you the best, which one you’re dominant in.
Some really good books, places to start in terms, if you want to go a little deeper in reading about Enneagram; The Road Back to You by Ian Cron is a great way to start. It’s a great overview of the Enneagram. It’s written with a Christian audience in mind. Ian Cron is an Episcopal priest and so he writes with the perspective of both a psychotherapist and a Christian. And of course, one of the most popular Enneagram teachers over the last 20, 30 years has been Richard Rohr in his book The Enneagram: A Christian Perspective is still a really great overview, a very deep, very spiritual as you would expect of Richard Rohr. So you can take a look at either one of those books, if you want to go a little deeper, but the Enneagram has provided me with such a great way to understand myself, understand others, to be compassionate towards others.
As I’ve said, and I’ll say it again, all of this is not intended to judge or to criticize anyone. It’s all intended to invite compassion towards others, compassion for ourselves and compassionate toward other people; to grow spiritually, to be the kind of people that God would have us be. That’s what the Enneagram is all about.
[WHITNEY]: Well, yes. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. And the next episode, we will talk about the head triads. So you’ll get to know James a little bit more and his fiveness.
[JAMES]: Absolutely. That way to talk about type fives.
[JOE]: What an awesome show. Hey, if you have not yet tried Therapy Notes, you need some help around your notes, your billing, your scheduling in now telehealth. Telehealth has never been more important than now, and it’s totally integrated within Therapy Notes. So make sure you go over to, use promo code [JOE]. You’re going to get three months for free. We give you three months free. And if you’re in another EHR, they will take all of that data and bring it over securely. Why not try it out? If you’re frustrated with your EHR or you just want something better, you’ve got to check out Use promo code [JOE] at checkout. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye.
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